The State of the European Cup?

[Warik]

A Love Affair with the European Cup?
Since the 1970's, we have been tagged with having a "love affair with the European Cup". Images of Rome in '77 and '84, Wembley in '78 and the streets of Paris turned red in '81 leap to the forefront of the mind whenever that soundbite protrudes its head from the depths of the press box. The miracle of Istanbul and the magical nights on the road to the Turkish capital preceded the "what could have been" night of Athens 2007. Throw into the mix the legendary European nights like St.Etienne, Auxerre, Roma, Barcelona, Juventus, Olympiakos, Inter Milan and Chelsea, and we have a European pedigree of the highest order.

We appreciate what the European Cup means. We stand back arrogantly and aloof as we watch Chelsea and Arsenal fans wave plastic flags to try and fabricate an atmosphere on these big European nights. They don't do it like we do, as they don't really understand what the competition means, nor understand its history and its prestige. They don't have that "love affair with the European Cup" we've built up over the years.

So what does it tell you when a lot of Liverpool fans are now losing the feeling that love affair has generated? We can still raise the roof for the big nights, and still enjoy them more than any other fixture on the calendar; but the magic seems to have disappeared. For me, that has come about for one major reason; repetition.

This season was the 5th year in succession that we've played Chelsea in the competition. Last year we knocked Arsenal out in the quarters finals before being eliminated by Chelsea in the semis. If we'd have beaten Chelsea, then Man United were waiting in the Final. That meant fixtures against 3 other English sides in the latter stages of the premier European competition. Fixtures we face in the League every season and could quite easily face in the League or FA Cups domestically. Those fixtures are not what European competition is all about, and have taken away the magic of European competition.

The title of "The Champions League" is also a farce.

Only the early section of the competiton is a league format, before reverting to a knock out competition when it reaches it's most dramatic stage. The business end of the competition is a knock out cup competiton, and the stage that generates far more interest than any group or league set up. The league system exists only to guarantee each club 6 games. Why risk the chance of being knocked out in the first round and only making money from one fixture, when you can be guarenteed 6 games and all the money the gate reciepts and TV exposure that generates? The club's are just as ready as UEFA in that respect.

The "Champions League" is now a glorified, money making qualifying competition for the European Cup proper that starts with the knockout phases come Spring.

As for the "Champions" label. How many teams in the competition each year are actually Champions? Only one side can win their domestic league each season; yet the major footballing countries all have 4 sides entered each season. The actual "Champions" taking part in the "Champions League" are in the minority.

I can already hear people saying: "You wouldn't be saying this if you were in the Final this season" and "It's sour grapes because Chelsea knocked you out again". Let me assure you; it's not.

Next season we already know who we're going to be playing. It'll be PSV, Marseille or a trip to Madrid again in the group stages. I think we could all name 6 of the 8 quarter finalists right now. It's becoming tedious no matter who the victors are at the end of the year. It's becoming tedious as the competition is being dominated by 4 English clubs. The last 5 finals have featured an English side. 3 of the 4 semi finalists in the last 2 seasons have been English. It's boring.

The best sides nearly always qualify from the group stage. The seeding system allows them to do that, in pairing them with inferior sides each year. Barring huge accidents, the better sides are pretty much guaranteed a passage to the knockout phase. So with "country protection" keeping the 4 English sides apart, the chances of them all meeting in the knockout stages increase. It's going to continue year after year. How long before interest begins to wane elsewhere? And with that wane in interest follows lack of interest from sponsors and TV companies. Keep blowing into the bubble and eventually it'll burst.

People hark back to English sides dominating the competition in the late '70's and early '80's, with English sides reaching the Final for 8 years in succession. But back then, there was only one English side entered into the competiton. The exception being if the reigning champions were English. The chances of meeting another English side in the competition were rare, and when the tie did arise, it felt special due to that rarity. It's just not the same anymore when you know you are going have to face one of the other top English sides at some stage. It's no different to the FA Cup in that respect.

Italian sides dominated the early 90's; but again, there were not 4 Italian sides meeting each other in the competition every season.

The UEFA Cup has also been massively devalued since the expansion of the Champions League. The best 4 sides from each country now contest the Champions League, leaving the UEFA Cup devoid of quality. Whereas it was once a top European competition in its own right, its now a competiton where even the likes of Aston Villa field weakened sides. The UEFA Cup even has a pointless group stage, serving only to provide guarenteed income with a minimum of 5 games for every club. A sad state of affairs.

The European Cup used to always be about competing against the best from abroad. Each country represented by their best side, pitting their wits against the best each other has to offer. That just isn't happening anymore, with the domination of English sides as the business end of the competition taking away that ideal; and it's only going to get worse.

A Chelsea v Barcelona semi final has infinitely more appeal than an Arsenal v Man United semi final. Barcelona v Man United is a proper European Cup Final; a Chelsea v Man United final is not.

The greed for more money is ruining the aura of European competition. How much longer before that greed takes it to a state of disrepair?

==================================================


Written from a Liverpool fans perspective, but I think it is something most fans are feeling nowadays. The monotony of the ties, knowing who you will play each year etc. I would already place a huge bet on us getting a grudge rematch against Chelsea at some point next season and i'm sure every fan of different clubs will be likewise...Beast could probably tell us now who Real will get...the Man Utd fans who they'll get...I could tell this year that we would get Bayern in the Quarters...likewise that there will probably at some point be a Chelsea-Pool tie...

This isn't a rant on the English domination, more of a thread where people can speak about the current state of the European Cup...sorry the 'Champions' league...what people would do to change it, whether it be how clubs qualify or how the competition format goes...

 

[Metaphysical]

that post is full of such bitterness and obvious statements it's untrue. as evidence of how little criticism he actually has he spends four paragraphs whinging about a semantic point-

The title of "The Champions League" is also a farce.

Only the early section of the competiton is a league format, before reverting to a knock out competition when it reaches it's most dramatic stage. The business end of the competition is a knock out cup competiton, and the stage that generates far more interest than any group or league set up. The league system exists only to guarantee each club 6 games. Why risk the chance of being knocked out in the first round and only making money from one fixture, when you can be guarenteed 6 games and all the money the gate reciepts and TV exposure that generates? The club's are just as ready as UEFA in that respect.

The "Champions League" is now a glorified, money making qualifying competition for the European Cup proper that starts with the knockout phases come Spring.

As for the "Champions" label. How many teams in the competition each year are actually Champions? Only one side can win their domestic league each season; yet the major footballing countries all have 4 sides entered each season. The actual "Champions" taking part in the "Champions League" are in the minority.

while this is true, what the hell does it matter what it's called? this is such a ridiculous criticism of it. and it also demonstrates his misunderstanding of the use of the word league (i.e. an association of people with a common goal). and of course the champions aspect, while out of date since the expansion, is a brand name more than anything.

AND in the last 10 years -

2008 - man utd qualified as champions, won as champions
2006 - barcelona qualified as champions, won as champions
2004 - porto qualified as champions, won as champions
2002 - real madrid qualified as champions
2001 - bayern munich qualified as champions, won as champions

so in the last decade, half the winners qualified for the tournament as champions of their country. and four of them won it alongside their national championship. this season the winners will also win it alongside their national championship and if united take the crown they'll have qualified as champions (and european champions) too.

to be perfectly honest, he's just upset they now have to regularly beat good teams instead of nobodies from finland and the like.

he also doesn't notice the rise in smaller teams - villarreal's run in the competition, the progress eastern europe is making, turkey upsetting some people, some of the crazy group performances this year from cluj and anorthis. and of course the changes to qualification which will mean more teams from more nations and less fourth place folk. will these smaller teams get trounced? at first, yes, but long-term the TV money they get will help them to improve immensely. in the long-term, they will improve.

and the uefa cup hasn't meant a thing since it existed. the fairs cup at least had some interesting twists to it. but they soon got rid of those, even, and just turned it into a second rate competition. which they rebranded into the uefa cup, thus confirming it's uselessness. admittedly with the bigger CL it means even less, but again it's about giving european football to countries and clubs that wouldn't otherwise get it.

saying all that I would like leagues with multiple entries to have one lopped off. so the top leagues would get two in the group stage and one in the unseeded qualifying. just to promote more diversity. plus you'd get more chance for upsets in the long-run.

the "aura" is only disappearing from european football if you choose see it that way. for me there's nothing quite like a european game, there's a special atmosphere about them. yeah so the draws can be predictable, weren't they predictable way back when? it's just a feeling you get about things. oh we'll draw so-and-so, etc. if they got rid of country protection and threw an all-english 1st round KO match in there next season we'd see a much fresher looking european cup after that. the only thing repetitive and dull about the european cup is the constant presence of the english teams, especially as when faced with top opposition they all adopt the same chickenshit tactic. apart from that it's still awesome.

 

[Warik]

It's the predictability Meta...you never had that in years gone by.

In the round of 16 next year one can already fairly accurately predict most of the teams:

Chelsea
Arsenal
Man Utd
Liverpool
Real Madrid
Barcelona
Sevilla
Inter Milan
Juventus
AC Milan
Bayern
Valencia

That is 12 of the 16 teams already...with the other 4 thrown in as tokes to make up the numbers after qualifying from poor groups..hell Valencia probably will fall into that category. The author is right, the rest of the teams are just in there to make sure every team gets cash and to extend the competition further.

The league format does the competition in. You point to the likes of Cluj and Shakhtar then they have little chance in a consistant league format. In a league format it favours the big teams. If that had been straight knockout like the old days Shakhtar would of knocked us out on away goals this year for example..Inter only just squeezed past Anorthosis...Werder Bremen would of knocked out Inter...Obviously it'd be different in knockout, but the point is small teams always fancy themselves in quick knockout 2 legged ties than 6 games in a league system where in the end quality in depth always will show up unless the big teams screw up monumentally. Werder could of knocked out Inter in a 2 legged tie but couldn't squeeze through a group stage for example.

The league system UEFA claim makes sure the best teams go through and is less luck based, but then as soon as you hit knockout rounds you get the luck anyway, us against Chelsea being a big one. If your going to have it anyway why not from the start? It'd be advantageous for the players on the whole as they are overworked which causes injuries, whether your in peak condition and young or not playiing 180 minutes of football a week, every week gets to you. So rather than 6 games they'd have 2 meaning you could spread the competition out more and give players more rest, and obviously with Real Madrids ineptitude in knockout competitions lately they'd crash out and everyone in Europe would have a good laugh...it'd just be better.

The European Cup hasn't been the same since the whole reworking. Do I understand the reasons for the rework? yes, but it doesn't mean I agree with them. Small teams are relegated to cannon fodder in the group stage where despite how much fight they put up the quality in depth of big teams eventually gets to them. Like Cluj they do well for the first couple of ties but then fail. I do enjoy the Champions League but IMO it isnt the same competition I grew up with. For me winning a CL for some reason doesn't mean as much as winning a European Cup when in actuality they are still the same competition, just a different format. It's silly but that is how it is for many older fans who remember the old European Cup.

Obviously though the problem doesn't lie squarely on the CL format but also on individual leagues and the money they wield. It isn't even just individual leagues...can anyone honestly see a Nottingham Forrest story now? Chelsea fans claim the title of the 'new' Nottingham Forrest, but everyone knows it isn't the same. It is easy to label yourselves as such on history, but Forrest didn't have millions and millions poured in by a billionaire to pull them up, and they weren't already doing fairly well to start with.

 

[Metaphysical]

you're right that there is a hint of predictability now, but it's only a hint, and the more these smaller teams play in the CL the better they'll get. long-term it will lead to increased competition.

in fact since the competition was expanded beyond champions it's become more unpredictable. milan made 3 finals in a row, juve 3 as well. there was that 3 year period where the champions made the following final only to lose, etc. since the expansion we've only had one final twice and that's liverpool/milan and only two teams in consecutive finals (valencia and united).

this malaise about the "same old teams" is a recent thing brought about by the consistency of the big 3 in england. apart from 05/06 chelsea have made the semi-finals every year since 03/04 and made the final once. apart from 06/07 liverpool have made the semi's every year since 04/05 and been to the final twice, winning once. united's record since bombing out in the groups in 05/06 has been one semi-final, one win, and now another final appearance. it's very impressive on their part, but it's kinda dull to watch.

no one whinged about the 3 italian or 3 spanish semis coz they were one-offs. they didn't happen again and again and again. for the third year running, 3 of the semi-finalists were english. THAT is the predictability which is killing the european cup.

as for nottingham forest, they played fucking awful football.

the bottom-line, though, is that these things only make the european cup mean less if you choose to allow them. the continued presence of these teams doesn't have to negate the fun of the group stages. the possibility of an upset. it's very defeatist to say "oh the usual suspects will be there" etc.

 

[Metaphysical]

and to prove my point, here's some mind-numbing research...

ROUND OF 16

08/09 has
atleti, porto, lyon, barca, arsenal, roma, inter, united, real, liverpool, chelsea, juve, villarreal, panathinaikos, sporting, bayern

which has 11 the same as 07/08
schalke, porto, roma, real, olympiacos, chelsea, liverpool, inter, celtic, barca, lyon, united, fenerbahce, sevilla, arsenal, milan

which has 12 the same as 06/07
celtic, milan, psv, arsenal, lille, united, real, bayern, roma, lyon, barca, liverpool, porto, chelsea, inter, valencia

which has 10 the same as 05/06
real, arsenal, bayern, milan, psv, lyon, benfica, liverpool, rangers, villarreal, chelsea, barca, bremen, juve, ajax, inter

which has 12 the same as 04/05
real, juve, liverpool, leverkusen, psv, monaco, bayern, arsenal, barca, chelsea, united, milan, bremen, lyon, porto, inter

which has 10 the same as 03/04
celta, arsenal, bayern, real, sparta, milan, lokomotiv, monaco, stuttgart, chelsea, porto, united, sociedad, lyon, deportivo, juve

so as you can see, there's always been a large amount of repetition at this stage of the competition ever since the round was introduced. the shine was on the apple then, no one was really bothered and indeed the round of 16 was praised!






QUARTER-FINALS

08/09 has
villarreal, arsenal, united, porto, liverpool, chelsea, barca, bayern

which has 5 the same as 07/08
roma, united, schalke, barca, fenerbache, chelsea, arsenal, liverpool

which has 4 the same as 06/07
milan, bayern, psv, liverpool, roma, united, chelsea, valencia

which has 2 the same as 05/06
benfica, barca, arsenal, juve, inter, villarreal, lyon, milan

which has 4 the same as 04/05
liverpool, juve, lyon, psv, chelsea, bayern, milan, inter

which has 3 the same as 03/04
porto, lyon, milan, deportivo, real, monaco, chelsea, arsenal

again, a lot of similarity throughout, although it did reach a peak this year with FIVE teams the same as the first KO round. but FOUR of those were the english (3 of whom were in the previous quarter-final too). and again, the monotony and such has only become a drag in the last couple of years.





SEMI-FINALS

08/09 has
barca, chelsea, united, arsenal

which has 3 the same as 07/08
liverpool, chelsea, barca, united

which has 3 the same as 06/07
united, milan, chelsea, liverpool

which has 1 the same as 05/06
milan, barca, arsenal, villarreal

which has 1 the same as 04/05
milan, psv, chelsea, liverpool

which has 1 the same as 03/04
monaco, chelsea, porto, deportivo

this just perfectly illustrates my point. 1 semi-finalist was always the same until the last three seasons when united and chelsea have been constants and liverpool and arsenal have filled up the quota. this malaise has developed in the last few years and having THREE out of four semi-finalists be from the same country three years running (and two of them be the same clubs throughout) is incredibly dull. THAT is where the problem lies.






THE FINAL

08/09 has
barca, united

which has 1 the same as 07/08
chelsea, united

which has 0 the same as 06/07
milan, liverpool

which has 0 the same as 05/06
barca, arsenal

which has 0 the same as 04/05
milan, liverpool

which has 0 the same as 03/04
monaco, porto

again, only one club has repeated but apart from 03/04 there's been a constant english presence. thankfully they've lost more than they've won (although that could even up this year) but really the point was made at the semi-final stage. no one was THAT bothered about the repetition in the CL because there was still wiggle room and teams still fluffed up and you always had variation in the latter stages which was crucial. but for three years now when it comes down to the final four it's the same old faces, and they're all from one country, and only sporadically play good football if at all.

I'm telling you, if let's say arsenal get KO'd before the groups or in the groups, and then we get an all-english round of 16 eliminating another one in the round of 16, the CL will be so much fresher for it.

 

[Metaphysical]

and as a final note, that liverpool post about "the same old faces" was only made because they've lost to chelsea two years in a row. I can almost guarantee you there was about 3 scousers complaining about the CL losing it's spark when they beat the chavs for the second time in 06/07.

 

[AnfieldEd]

I think your hate on liverpool fc is clouding your judgement...

 

[Heath Newton]

I think your hate on liverpool fc is clouding your judgement...

i disconcur

i think that it's CLEARLY harder to win now that it ever was,and the boredom due to familiarity does NOT make it lesser in quality.

it's quite easy to overplay a favourite song until you're sick of it yourself,but to others who hear it every now and again,it will remain a thing of wonderment.
isn't this the same??

 

[Warik]

you're right that there is a hint of predictability now, but it's only a hint, and the more these smaller teams play in the CL the better they'll get. long-term it will lead to increased competition.

in fact since the competition was expanded beyond champions it's become more unpredictable. milan made 3 finals in a row, juve 3 as well. there was that 3 year period where the champions made the following final only to lose, etc. since the expansion we've only had one final twice and that's liverpool/milan and only two teams in consecutive finals (valencia and united).

this malaise about the "same old teams" is a recent thing brought about by the consistency of the big 3 in england. apart from 05/06 chelsea have made the semi-finals every year since 03/04 and made the final once. apart from 06/07 liverpool have made the semi's every year since 04/05 and been to the final twice, winning once. united's record since bombing out in the groups in 05/06 has been one semi-final, one win, and now another final appearance. it's very impressive on their part, but it's kinda dull to watch.

no one whinged about the 3 italian or 3 spanish semis coz they were one-offs. they didn't happen again and again and again. for the third year running, 3 of the semi-finalists were english. THAT is the predictability which is killing the european cup.

as for nottingham forest, they played fucking awful football.

the bottom-line, though, is that these things only make the european cup mean less if you choose to allow them. the continued presence of these teams doesn't have to negate the fun of the group stages. the possibility of an upset. it's very defeatist to say "oh the usual suspects will be there" etc.

People have moaned about the same teams ever since the competitions inception. Back in the late 90's Juve were ALWAYS there or thereabouts (3 finals in 3 years), and they ALWAYS seemed to draw Man Utd...Ajax (2 finals in 2 years)

Look through the finals in the 80's till the CL inception for example:

1980–81 Liverpool 1–0 Real Madrid
1981–82 Aston Villa 1–0 Bayern Munich
1982–83 Hamburg 1–0 Juventus
1983–84 Liverpool 1–1 Roma
1984–85 Juventus 1–0 Liverpool
1985–86 Steaua Bucureşti 0–0 Barcelona
1986–87 Porto 2–1 Bayern Munich
1987–88 PSV Eindhoven 0–0 Benfica
1988–89 Milan 4–0 Steaua Bucureşti
1989–90 Milan 1–0 Benfica
1990–91 Red Star Belgrade 0–0 Marseille
1991–92 Barcelona 1–0 Sampdoria

How many of the bold teams can you HONESTLY say you'll see in a UEFA CL final now? Porto-Monaco was a blip like last years FA Cup. Now it is all about money and power and there is no way for smaller teams to go on a run and shock people. It was never about who is dominant as you can see in the 80's countries went through years of domination even if less pronounced than the current English one.

How can you come out and say it is less predictable now? if you were alive back then you'd never have predicted those teams in the final...Going back to straight knockout is the only solution IMO as with away goals it gives smaller teams a chance. You say the small teams will get better as they get more money but we were told the same in the 90's...and the only way the English got better was the mass cash injection of billionaires. Unless these teams get billionaire support its unlikely we'll ever see them competing seriously in the current format.

TBH the CL has become a bit of a farce. I watch it and enjoy it but it isnt the same as it used to be. Real Madrid Valencia in 99/00 was the first time ever that two teams from one country had competed in a final. Now it is in danger of becomming common place.

 

[gazza]

What's in a name eh ! Champions League it's not though is it.
Money that's what this is about and the more the top teams earn out of it will only make them stronger(leaving behind the rest in there respective leagues).
They will build bigger and better squads and then it will be even more repetitive.
May as well just go the whole way and have a european league.

 

[Beast]

getting back the KO round is better and less games for sure.. one small team can make a difference over 2 legs.. group stage allow the same shit over & over again ..put KO rounds back in the CL and apply 6+5 and u'll have a much better all around competition

 

[Guardian]

I agree with Warik and Beast. They probably remember how unpredictable the competition was. The romantic era of football has gone, now it's all about money, glory hunters and money again. Now you can see a group of 10 to 15 teams playing each other every year. And yes, Barcelona, Real M, Liverpool, Chelsea, Man U, Arsenal, Bayern, Porto, Milan, Inter, Juventus will be at the knock-out stage again next year, at the moment the UEFA cup is way more intriguing than CL. Platini has changed the formula a bit, and now teams like Arsenal, Fiorentina, Valencia have to play a tough opponent if they want to enter the CL.

 

[AnfieldEd]

It isn't harder to win now, not really when you look at it in depth. Sure you play more games now, but only THE best teams in europe played in the european cup in its hey day. The best players stayed in their national league and therefore those teams were stronger.

For example Club Brugge had the best of the Belgium national team, who become one of the best national teams in the 80's. Those players did not leave Belgium and reached a Uefa and European cup final - both times losing to Liverpool!

So in that sense you had basically the national team together in a club team in a european cup.

I really do hate this myth it is harder to win now - it simply isn't and I am being honest here only people who are quite frankly ignorant of the facts - or simply ignore them to put their argument forward, which is therefore flawed, would think it so.

From a personal point of view I hate playing english teams in europe, not because I don't believe we can win or anything to do with that. But in europe I want to face teams from different countries and test ourselves against continental competiton. To see how we compare against all these great historical sides from past and present. That is what makes a magical night in europe. Playing Chelsea every season hardly inspires you to conjure up images of great european nights.

2005 was special, because it was a novelty playing english opposition, it was a semi final, we hadn't come this close in 20 years, we had previous with chelsea and Mourinho and all those things togther made that atmosphere what it was.

 

[Heath Newton]

It isn't harder to win now, not really when you look at it in depth. Sure you play more games now, but only THE best teams in europe played in the european cup in its hey day.

I really do hate this myth it is harder to win now - it simply isn't and I am being honest here only people who are quite frankly ignorant of the facts - or simply ignore them to put their argument forward, which is therefore flawed, would think it so.

just 2 points.
1.best teams.......

Celtic 11–1 Jeunesse Esch 5–0 6–1
Basel 2–3 Wacker 1–3 1–0
Red Star Belgrade 6–0 Sligo Rovers 3–0 3–0
Vasas 1–4 Borussia Mönchengladbach 0–3 1–1
Benfica 0–01 Torpedo Moscow 0–0 0–0
Trabzonspor 1–2 Boldklubben 1903 1–0 0–2
Liverpool Bye – – –
Dynamo Dresden 3–2 Halmstad 2–0 1–2
Levski-Spartak 5–2 Śląsk Wrocław 3–0 2–2
Lillestrøm 2–4 Ajax 2–0 0–4
Valur 1–2 Glentoran 1–0 0–2
Omonia 0–5 Juventus 0–3 0–2
KuPS 2–9 Club Brugge 0–4 2–5
Floriana 1–5 Panathinaikos 1–1 0–4
Dukla Prague 1–12 Nantes 1–1 0–0
Dinamo Bucharest 2–3 Atlético Madrid

...........some of them.

2.harder to win,ignorant of the facts.

1977-78

1st Round
Liverpool - Bye

2nd Round
Liverpool 6–3 Dynamo Dresden

(Q/F)
Benfica 2–6 Liverpool

(S/F)
Borussia Mönchengladbach 2–4 Liverpool

Final
Liverpool 1–0 Club Brugge

that'll be a very difficult 7 matches then.
can you tell me any time in the last 20 years that any team has had it that easy??

 

[shadows]

just 2 points.
1.best teams.......



...........some of them.

2.harder to win,ignorant of the facts.

1977-78

1st Round
Liverpool - Bye

2nd Round
Liverpool 6–3 Dynamo Dresden

(Q/F)
Benfica 2–6 Liverpool

(S/F)
Borussia Mönchengladbach 2–4 Liverpool

Final
Liverpool 1–0 Club Brugge

that'll be a very difficult 7 matches then.
can you tell me any time in the last 20 years that any team has had it that easy??

Except for the final..Man Utd of 2008-09
Inter(known chokers), Porto , Arsenal(over rated)!