Ronald Koeman

[JamDav1982]

And when one of them has the ball, they almost never speed up the game. It's always tempo-ing, slowing down the game, for our other slow and old players to assume advanced positions in near-walking pace. It's terrible. This is evident when a faster player in our team has the ball and runs with it trying to penetrate and break. In a few seconds, every team-mate is behind him and he is forced either to go solo, cross to nobody, or pass back. Simply because the others are too slow to transition at the same rhythm as him.

Even the balls to Messi/Suarez are laboured as players almost expect little movement and play at slow pace to get ball to them.

Puig was one of few that seemed not to be on that level and tried to move ball as quick as could even to Messi/Suarez and other players in advanced positions.... maybe part of reason older players were said to not favour the youngsters.

It looked at times that players were flat footed when received ball from Puig as did not expect the early/risky pass.

 

[Richard.H]

Even the balls to Messi/Suarez are laboured as players almost expect little movement and play at slow pace to get ball to them.

Puig was one of few that seemed not to be on that level and tried to move ball as quick as could even to Messi/Suarez and other players in advanced positions.... maybe part of reason older players were said to not favour the youngsters.

It looked at times that players were flat footed when received ball from Puig as did not expect the early/risky pass.

This was a bit shocking to me too last season. It seemed sometimes players like Puig, De Jong, Fati, and even Semedo were a bit "too fast" for the older players? like they would push forward, only to look up and see that they cant pass to anyone because their teammates didnt run with them. It was weird.

 

[serghei]

Even the balls to Messi/Suarez are laboured as players almost expect little movement and play at slow pace to get ball to them.

Puig was one of few that seemed not to be on that level and tried to move ball as quick as could even to Messi/Suarez and other players in advanced positions.... maybe part of reason older players were said to not favour the youngsters.

It looked at times that players were flat footed when received ball from Puig as did not expect the early/risky pass.

Exactly. You even see them gesticulating and instructing the players where to pass because they are not interested to make moves and approach a possible pass. It's almost as in boxing where older boxers use tricks to hide the fact that they don't have the legs to last full 12 rounds of action.

Puig is one of the few who stubbornly tried to find them, with some superb fine passes which only a few players make with that boldness at his age. And they, as you say, were completely flatfooted because they were actually ball-watching and weren't connected or alert enough to be played on.

 

[khaled_a_d]

True, it's all connected. That's why you have to replace old slow players with young and fast ones.

Why don't we wait to see Trincao play first before we pass judgment on him. And Griezmann is not a slow player. He may not have Mbappe pace, but he doesn't look and move like a slow player at all.

That is a problem right here, you need that Sterling/Mpabbe/Dembele/Gnabry type of pace in your front line. Not just a quicker than Messi
One that teams will regret trying to press you. He makes everything easier for the rest of the team.
When Griezmann started against RM inCamp Nou, they actually pressed us a lot and didn't give a shit about attack, same with Bayern when he played in 2nd half.
That isn't a knock on either him or Trincao, I believe in both player's quality. But this is about the big picture, you don't win by quality alone but how those pieces would fit together.
Griezmann/Trincao/Fati/Messi etc, all could benefit from having that one super quick player
Dembele could be one, but his lack of quality and injury history is aproblem

The problem in defense for me started with Messi and Suarez. Everybody concentrates on the back line because they don't think about football in modern, 2020 terms. Effort and coordination up front to block the construction of the opponent in deep phase is essential today.

That is true, but again it doesn't take problem from defensive line. The pieces simply doesn't fit together or the big picture.
Pique and Lenglet are good quality CBs, but their fit is beyond terrible. Neither is mobile enough. Lenglet might be a better CB overall than Mascherano, but he forms a worse defense with Pique because of this.
And this also hurts attack btw, because you can't press or play highline even if you want.
And that isn't taking into account the form of the rest of defense, I know you rate Semedo but atm I rate him worse than worst version of Oleguer. Right now I take Roberto over him, and I don't even like Roberto fit for the defense

 

[serghei]

That is a problem right here, you need that Sterling/Mpabbe/Dembele/Gnabry type of pace in your front line. Not just a quicker than Messi
One that teams will regret trying to press you. He makes everything easier for the rest of the team.
When Griezmann started against RM inCamp Nou, they actually pressed us a lot and didn't give a shit about attack, same with Bayern when he played in 2nd half.
That isn't a knock on either him or Trincao, I believe in both player's quality. But this is about the big picture, you don't win by quality alone but how those pieces would fit together.
Griezmann/Trincao/Fati/Messi etc, all could benefit from having that one super quick player
Dembele could be one, but his lack of quality and injury history is aproblem

You need about one very pacy player. Maybe 2, but it's not obligatory. Muller is anything but superfast and he's been incredible for Bayern. Lewandowski at 30 is not some superfast player either. Neither is Perisic at 30. You absolutely need a very fast player up front. But not several. You just need to use that player well enough and get him in the best tactical setup.

If Dembele will be fit, it can open up some interesting opportunities. Big if though.

That is true, but again it doesn't take problem from defensive line. The pieces simply doesn't fit together or the big picture.
Pique and Lenglet are good quality CBs, but their fit is beyond terrible. Neither is mobile enough. Lenglet might be a better CB overall than Mascherano, but he forms a worse defense with Pique because of this.
And this also hurts attack btw, because you can't press or play highline even if you want.
And that isn't taking into account the form of the rest of defense, I know you rate Semedo but atm I rate him worse than worst version of Oleguer. Right now I take Roberto over him, and I don't even like Roberto fit for the defense

It absolutely does take many problems for the defensive line, simply because much lower pressure is put on the defense. Our defense collapsed because of constant pressure being put on these players. Bayern is actually the best example. Before Bayern started to settle and press well up front and in midfield both vs Barca and vs Lyon they could have received as many as 5-6 goals combined. But they've stormed that (also got lucky), and as the game progressed, their pressing scheme which involves about 6-8 players, started to work better, and the opponent was impeded from creating chances. Thus, their defense, in terms of pure defending skills 1 vs 1 was rarely tested after that bumpy start on their part. Almost every time Lyon broke the press from Bayern's first 6-8 players, their back 4 looked crap defensively.

The key is not to find elite defenders, because there are none. As I said, if elite defenders were around, Simeone wouldn't still use an average tall guy like Savic. The key is defending as a unit, with more effort, intensity and speed from everyone, to prevent the opponent to attack and press our back four at will.

 

[serghei]

I may be in the minority here, but imo, we have more problems in midfield and attack than in defense.

 

[Gaudi]

I may be in the minority here, but imo, we have more problems in midfield and attack than in defense.

You are not alone

 

[khaled_a_d]

You need about one very pacy player. Maybe 2, but it's not obligatory. Muller is anything but superfast and he's been incredible for Bayern. Lewandowski at 30 is not some superfast player either. Neither is Perisic at 30. You absolutely need a very fast player up front. But not several. You just need to use that player well enough and get him in the best tactical setup.

If Dembele will be fit, it can open up some interesting opportunities. Big if though.

Agree, I don't want more that one.

It absolutely does take many problems for the defensive line, simply because much lower pressure is put on the defense. Our defense collapsed because of constant pressure being put on these players. Bayern is actually the best example. Before Bayern started to settle and press well up front and in midfield both vs Barca and vs Lyon they could have received as many as 5-6 goals combined. But they've stormed that (also got lucky), and as the game progressed, their pressing scheme which involves about 6-8 players, started to work better, and the opponent was impeded from creating chances. Thus, their defense, in terms of pure defending skills 1 vs 1 was rarely tested after that bumpy start on their part. Almost every time Lyon broke the press from Bayern's first 6-8 players, their back 4 looked crap defensively.

The key is not to find elite defenders, because there are none. As I said, if elite defenders were around, Simeone wouldn't still use an average tall guy like Savic. The key is defending as a unit, with more effort, intensity and speed from everyone, to prevent the opponent to attack and press our back four at will.

You are missing the point here.
It is a team work, and yes attack and midfield play a part, but so does defense
That pacey defender change a lot. And It isn't just about elite defender. Prime Pique was elite defender but I won't take 2 Pique as starting CB . That is same reason I was against De Ligt (who most Juve fans think he was great in second half of the season) because he doesn't fit that need. As I said, I would take a Mascherano here despite having other limitations.

With no quick CB, you are in 1 of 2 situations:
1-You play with high line, press hard, but in such case you so vulnerable in counter attacks.
2-You make defense more deep, and this put problems for both midfield and attack. Defense will have more difficulty to help defense.

Again, it is all connected, your points are valid, but they aren't alone. And still need certain types of defenders to help it.
Gnabry goal against Bayern is good example, Thiago and Gnabry didn't hesitate to make the pass and run, despite defenders in big position. That is because they know -and instructed- to make those passes without worry since our defense is so slow.
You improve midfield and attack will help defense, but you still need to improve the defense too, and it will also improve midfield and attack themselves in return.

 

[serghei]

You are missing the point here.
It is a team work, and yes attack and midfield play a part, but so does defense
That pacey defender change a lot. And It isn't just about elite defender. Prime Pique was elite defender but I won't take 2 Pique as starting CB . That is same reason I was against De Ligt (who most Juve fans think he was great in second half of the season) because he doesn't fit that need. As I said, I would take a Mascherano here despite having other limitations.

With no quick CB, you are in 1 of 2 situations:
1-You play with high line, press hard, but in such case you so vulnerable in counter attacks.
2-You make defense more deep, and this put problems for both midfield and attack. Defense will have more difficulty to help defense.

Again, it is all connected, your points are valid, but they aren't alone. And still need certain types of defenders to help it.
Gnabry goal against Bayern is good example, Thiago and Gnabry didn't hesitate to make the pass and run, despite defenders in big position. That is because they know -and instructed- to make those passes without worry since our defense is so slow.
You improve midfield and attack will help defense, but you still need to improve the defense too, and it will also improve midfield and attack themselves in return.

Sure, pacey defenders can change something. But not as much as pressing in midfield and attack will. I think you have the order of importance backwards.

Most important for me is that everybody does defense in midfield and forward line. Even Messi has to do more than he is doing now. That will no doubt take a big burden form the defensive area. And then sure, you can improve the defensive ability of the back line in 1 vs 1 by having a CB with more pace than Pique, Lenglet.

Individual ability is basically the last improvement that should be made. Until we have money to sign more quality there, the setup has to be improved a lot. Meaning, forwards who can defend, midfielders who are fresh and can run for 90 mins. And everything in the team's preparation and fitness program to be made following these targets.

To put it short, we should focus more on stopping the opponent from playing their game, than signing elite defenders (there are none anyway), hoping we block them once they easily get to our box and attack us in numbers from everywhere. The teams that impose their game is almost always winning in the Champions League. Especially since there are no elite defensive sides anymore, like 2010 Inter and Chelsea.

If we improve the way we defend as a whole, defense will no doubt improve a lot even with current players.

 

[JohnN]

We should improve the way we keep the ball do we don't run like headless chicken trying to "stop the other teams game". We should play our game, because that is Barca. We had 49% of the ball vs Bayern. I don't want 70%, but 49 is too low for us. We played 4-4-2 and couldn't even keep the ball in our half. It's obvious that the problem lies in defense and midfield. Not in attack. At least, most of the problem.

 

[serghei]

We should improve the way we keep the ball do we don't run like headless chicken trying to "stop the other teams game". We should play our game, because that is Barca. We had 49% of the ball vs Bayern. I don't want 70%, but 49 is too low for us. We played 4-4-2 and couldn't even keep the ball in our half. It's obvious that the problem lies in defense and midfield. Not in attack. At least, most of the problem.

I was speaking about defending without the ball. But to keep the ball you need the same thing. Movement and intensity for full 90 mins in order to not allow the opponent to press you and cut your passing options.

You can't keep the ball well when your midfielders and forwards don't move well and are slow. You can keep it in these conditions if you face teams that don't press and sit back. Which the best teams in Europe won't do when when there is so much to be gained by attacking Barca full on.

 

[JohnN]

You need technical abilities man. Not saying you don't need legs. But this is the less technical Barca I have seen, trying to play possession football. It can't work.
Our defending has always been about handling counters. Not low block shit we do now.

 

[serghei]

You need technical abilities man. Not saying you don't need legs. But this is the less technical Barca I have seen, trying to play possession football. It can't work.
Our defending has always been about handling counters. Not low block shit we do now.

Technical ability without at least good movement doesn't bring you anything. 99% of the time you won't attempt a solo dribble if the pass is not on. You will pass it back, or even worse, lose it. Especially in vulnerable positions. And the pass will be on or off depending on how fast, consistent and intense your movements are.

 

[JohnN]

Movement is not speed or physicality. Movement is about coordination between the players. That's the managers job and of course their talent. If we can recreate our triangles and keep players close, we don't need to run aimlessly to keep the ball.
Still, we need faster players.

 

[serghei]

Movement is not speed or physicality. Movement is about coordination between the players. That's the managers job and of course their talent. If we can recreate our triangles and keep players close, we don't need to run aimlessly to keep the ball.
Still, we need faster players.

Any physical effort depends on physical attributes, such as speed, intensity, stamina etc. Of course, tactics are a component on their own, but they are useless if the players can't or don't want to follow them.