Haraldinho
Well-known member
I want to invite him to leave anyway.
Hans-Dieter Flick
- Thread starter Fati_Future_BallonDor
- Start date
jamrock
Senior Member
In the summer we get a CB or two
Raphinha and Garcia is back and we'll see how he looks next year.
We'll still ship goals for fun, but we should start scoring 4 per game again.
It's kind of insane that a team needs 4 goals to feel secure in every game, but that's the coach we have, at least it's fun
Raphinha and Garcia is back and we'll see how he looks next year.
We'll still ship goals for fun, but we should start scoring 4 per game again.
It's kind of insane that a team needs 4 goals to feel secure in every game, but that's the coach we have, at least it's fun
iniestaGOAT
Senior Member
We embarrassing ourselves vs broke European and la liga scrub teams now.
No excuses.
We got better players than these scrubs yet we come out as laughing stock.
But who's surprised? Tactics are a joke
Give this fool any CB in the world we are still getting cooked
No excuses.
We got better players than these scrubs yet we come out as laughing stock.
But who's surprised? Tactics are a joke
Give this fool any CB in the world we are still getting cooked
HeadElastico
Active member
Pointless to talk about how he is doing 'the best with what he can' and that 'if we had to defend deeper we'd be worse cause we have shit defenders'.
How much worse would we be doing exactly? We would be conceding 4, 5 or 6 goals instead of the 3 and 4 we conceding now? Or is it that we are scoring goals exclusively due to winning the ball back in high areas with the opponent completely OUT of shape? Because that almost never happens lol.
Barca has to break teams constantly with 11 men behind the ball because everyone knows it takes little effort to punt one through ball through to make a 1 v 1 against us. So not only is the defending crap, it literally makes it even harder for us to score than if they opened up a bit more.
Complete and utter madness in any objective evaluation of the situation by anyone who can understand the most basic concepts of football.
How much worse would we be doing exactly? We would be conceding 4, 5 or 6 goals instead of the 3 and 4 we conceding now? Or is it that we are scoring goals exclusively due to winning the ball back in high areas with the opponent completely OUT of shape? Because that almost never happens lol.
Barca has to break teams constantly with 11 men behind the ball because everyone knows it takes little effort to punt one through ball through to make a 1 v 1 against us. So not only is the defending crap, it literally makes it even harder for us to score than if they opened up a bit more.
Complete and utter madness in any objective evaluation of the situation by anyone who can understand the most basic concepts of football.
jairzinho
Senior Member
He doesn't seem to know what his best CB pairing is. Sometimes its Araujo-Cubarsi or Garcia-Cubarsi. None have actually impressed so far or done well enough to nail down a starting spot. Hopefully the Brugge game might force him to rethink things. There's still lots of time to turn things around.
jairzinho
Senior Member
This season in LL: 13 goals conceded in 11 games. 28 goals scored. 8 wins. 2 losses, 1 draw. 3 clean aheets.
Last season at this stage: 11 conceded. 37 scored. 10 wins. 1 loss. 4 clean sheets.
You could say this season bears a slight resemblance to last year as far as the numbers are concerned. Although it does feel the performances have regressed this year.
The 4-1 loss away to Sevilla is almost identical to the 4-2 loss away to Osasuna last season where they tore us apart on the counter.
After the clasico win last year, we beat Espanyol and then there was the disaster run. Only 1 win and 3 draws in 8 games, 6 out of a possible 24 points.
Take from it what you wish. Last year we won titles while mostly playing some impressive football but there were some appallingly shite performances in there aswell.
Last season at this stage: 11 conceded. 37 scored. 10 wins. 1 loss. 4 clean sheets.
You could say this season bears a slight resemblance to last year as far as the numbers are concerned. Although it does feel the performances have regressed this year.
The 4-1 loss away to Sevilla is almost identical to the 4-2 loss away to Osasuna last season where they tore us apart on the counter.
After the clasico win last year, we beat Espanyol and then there was the disaster run. Only 1 win and 3 draws in 8 games, 6 out of a possible 24 points.
Take from it what you wish. Last year we won titles while mostly playing some impressive football but there were some appallingly shite performances in there aswell.
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It's pretty clear now that Flick will live and die by his philosophy.
The biggest issue is money. Shitty epl teams can go out and spend 50 to 60 million while we struggle to even register players.
Im hoping Lucho comes back so all the clowns here who criticise Flick can actually see what the squad is made of. There may be a bit of a honeymoon effect but sooner or later Lucho will be screaming for new players.
Loki
Well-known member
Here's a good post from a German forum to the actual problems:
It's very simple.
This high defensive line works excellently when four basic requirements are met:
1. Intensity off the ball.
2. Consistent implementation as a team (everyone participates).
3. Confidence in this style of play.
4. Correct decision-making when tracking back.
If these four points are more or less in place, then this team and this style of play will be successful. Look at last season. Then you can even knock the top teams out of the stadium, just like we did last year with Bayern Munich and Real Madrid. But if it doesn't work, then this style of play is too vulnerable to win any prizes.
Inigo perfectly explained the strengths and weaknesses of this style of play last season.
"If we apply the right kind of pressure, it's hard for teams to get in behind us and find a player, also because our goalkeeper moves forward, and that helps." "
"As long as we get the pressure right, teams will struggle to create chances against us."
And we're not seeing that right kind of pressing right now. Playing the pass for yesterday's 3-2 goal under pressure is extremely difficult, but without pressure it's very easy. The consequence? It's exactly what Inigo mentioned:
"If we relax we'll pay for it."
Yesterday's game was a prime example of this.
Point 1:
The intensity is sometimes lacking. This makes it easy for reasonably good players to exploit this high defensive line.
This offside trap thrives on the opponent being under pressure, so they don't have time to play these precise passes. We saw it in perfect form last season when we caught opponents offside time and time again.
The question is: why are the players sometimes lacking the bite they showed last season? Is it a matter of attitude? Then Flick needs to take decisive action. Is it poor physical condition? Then Flick needs to adapt the style of play, because he knows best that his style is based on giving 100% intensity. For that, the players need to be physically fit. If they aren't, then you can't play the system so extremely; it simply doesn't work at this level.
Point 2:
Currently, the positional play is sometimes chaotic. That's inexplicable to me, because the team is practically the same. But sometimes the spacing is off, and the timing is wrong too. In other words, we're not compact.
Point 3:
Last season, you could see that the team had 100% confidence in this style of play. Currently, I see a lot of doubt on some faces. This style of play doesn't forgive even a second's hesitation. It has to be played with complete consistency. The 1-0 goal. That hesitation with Koundé. We didn't see that last season.
Rashford, by the way, is dangerous offensively, but he's one of the reasons why the pressing isn't working. He presses far too late and without intensity. You have to press at a sprint, not with a light jog. That doesn't put any good player under pressure at this level. If the attackers don't trigger properly, the whole team suffers. The strikers are absolutely essential for the pressing. They're worlds apart from what Raphinha offers off the ball. It's simply not enough.
For me, the fundamental question here is: does this team still believe in this risky style of play? If not, it is impossible to be successful if Flick sticks to it.
Point 4:
There are two basic principles when defending with this high defensive line. If you can put pressure on the opponent, then you can set the offside trap. We saw this done to perfection last season.
However, if you can't put pressure on the opponent, then setting the offside trap is simply foolish. There's only one solution: you have to track back! That can't end well; every decent third-division player in Spain plays those cut passes without any pressure.
The goal conceded to make it 3-2 is a prime example. Vanaken had the ball in midfield without any pressure from a Barca player. He had all the time in the world. In such a situation, you absolutely MUST NOT set the offside trap, because it's incredibly easy to time that pass perfectly. In this situation, the defense should be tracking back with their opponents.
If Vanaken were under pressure, he wouldn't have had time to play that ball. Then you can set the offside trap.
Another issue is Szeszczny. He exudes maximum insecurity this season, both with and without the ball. This affects the entire team. He's worlds apart from Joan Garcia.
The 2-1 goal is clearly his fault. With our style of play, he should have been much further forward and intercepted that (predictable) through ball. He could have easily intercepted it.
Flick seems convinced that some problems will be solved with the return of Joan Garcia, Raphinha, and then Pedri. I'm not so sure, because intensity, belief in the style of play, and collective work off the ball is a task for 11 players, not just 2 or 3.
The international break comes at the right time. But first, we have to play Celta Vigo away. If we play like we did yesterday, they'll have several clear chances on goal again. We've only won one of our last three matches in Vigo, and Vigo showed last season that they like our style of play.
On the positive side:
We were strong offensively. We scored three goals, hit the post three times, and created a string of chances. It had a similar vibe to last season. Lamine had a brilliant performance and showed that he'd been lacking one thing most recently: match rhythm due to his injury.
It's very simple.
This high defensive line works excellently when four basic requirements are met:
1. Intensity off the ball.
2. Consistent implementation as a team (everyone participates).
3. Confidence in this style of play.
4. Correct decision-making when tracking back.
If these four points are more or less in place, then this team and this style of play will be successful. Look at last season. Then you can even knock the top teams out of the stadium, just like we did last year with Bayern Munich and Real Madrid. But if it doesn't work, then this style of play is too vulnerable to win any prizes.
Inigo perfectly explained the strengths and weaknesses of this style of play last season.
"If we apply the right kind of pressure, it's hard for teams to get in behind us and find a player, also because our goalkeeper moves forward, and that helps." "
"As long as we get the pressure right, teams will struggle to create chances against us."
And we're not seeing that right kind of pressing right now. Playing the pass for yesterday's 3-2 goal under pressure is extremely difficult, but without pressure it's very easy. The consequence? It's exactly what Inigo mentioned:
"If we relax we'll pay for it."
Yesterday's game was a prime example of this.
Point 1:
The intensity is sometimes lacking. This makes it easy for reasonably good players to exploit this high defensive line.
This offside trap thrives on the opponent being under pressure, so they don't have time to play these precise passes. We saw it in perfect form last season when we caught opponents offside time and time again.
The question is: why are the players sometimes lacking the bite they showed last season? Is it a matter of attitude? Then Flick needs to take decisive action. Is it poor physical condition? Then Flick needs to adapt the style of play, because he knows best that his style is based on giving 100% intensity. For that, the players need to be physically fit. If they aren't, then you can't play the system so extremely; it simply doesn't work at this level.
Point 2:
Currently, the positional play is sometimes chaotic. That's inexplicable to me, because the team is practically the same. But sometimes the spacing is off, and the timing is wrong too. In other words, we're not compact.
Point 3:
Last season, you could see that the team had 100% confidence in this style of play. Currently, I see a lot of doubt on some faces. This style of play doesn't forgive even a second's hesitation. It has to be played with complete consistency. The 1-0 goal. That hesitation with Koundé. We didn't see that last season.
Rashford, by the way, is dangerous offensively, but he's one of the reasons why the pressing isn't working. He presses far too late and without intensity. You have to press at a sprint, not with a light jog. That doesn't put any good player under pressure at this level. If the attackers don't trigger properly, the whole team suffers. The strikers are absolutely essential for the pressing. They're worlds apart from what Raphinha offers off the ball. It's simply not enough.
For me, the fundamental question here is: does this team still believe in this risky style of play? If not, it is impossible to be successful if Flick sticks to it.
Point 4:
There are two basic principles when defending with this high defensive line. If you can put pressure on the opponent, then you can set the offside trap. We saw this done to perfection last season.
However, if you can't put pressure on the opponent, then setting the offside trap is simply foolish. There's only one solution: you have to track back! That can't end well; every decent third-division player in Spain plays those cut passes without any pressure.
The goal conceded to make it 3-2 is a prime example. Vanaken had the ball in midfield without any pressure from a Barca player. He had all the time in the world. In such a situation, you absolutely MUST NOT set the offside trap, because it's incredibly easy to time that pass perfectly. In this situation, the defense should be tracking back with their opponents.
If Vanaken were under pressure, he wouldn't have had time to play that ball. Then you can set the offside trap.
Another issue is Szeszczny. He exudes maximum insecurity this season, both with and without the ball. This affects the entire team. He's worlds apart from Joan Garcia.
The 2-1 goal is clearly his fault. With our style of play, he should have been much further forward and intercepted that (predictable) through ball. He could have easily intercepted it.
Flick seems convinced that some problems will be solved with the return of Joan Garcia, Raphinha, and then Pedri. I'm not so sure, because intensity, belief in the style of play, and collective work off the ball is a task for 11 players, not just 2 or 3.
The international break comes at the right time. But first, we have to play Celta Vigo away. If we play like we did yesterday, they'll have several clear chances on goal again. We've only won one of our last three matches in Vigo, and Vigo showed last season that they like our style of play.
On the positive side:
We were strong offensively. We scored three goals, hit the post three times, and created a string of chances. It had a similar vibe to last season. Lamine had a brilliant performance and showed that he'd been lacking one thing most recently: match rhythm due to his injury.
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ZenI
Professor Balthazar
Last 6-7 weeks have been shit, like really really shit. Any good team outplays us and any decent team out-counters us. All 3 goals against Bruges were such fuck-ups it's beyond what ANY decent CL team would allow - maybe 1 of the goals, alright. But all 3 and almost a couple more?
We push up our entire team - Balde and Kounde suddenly both of them play CAMs (?), Casado fuck ups, the other team does a fast counter with 3 players against clueless Ara and midget Eric while they try to set an offside trap both heading in the wrong direction - we get punished wash and repeat.
Nah Flick, everybody has us figured out and his dumb ass is stubborn trying the same thing over and over and over again.
Fuck your 4-2-3-1, let's get back to 4-3-3 - not like we have any use out of Olmo anyway and Fermin is alright every fourth game or so. Play with DM again (Garcia would be my first choice), attack with only one wingback at a time and pull down the defensive line a little. Let Rashy/Raphinha, Ferran/Lewa and Yamal + our CM's press a lot. Build up a little bit deeper with maybe 2 less players going Kamikaze attack-style - otherwise the other teams parks the buss and just wait for the tiniest mistake (and we do those simple mistakes all the fucking time - usually from Kounde, Rashford, Casado, Fermin, Olmo).
Nah this ain't it Flick you dumbass.
We push up our entire team - Balde and Kounde suddenly both of them play CAMs (?), Casado fuck ups, the other team does a fast counter with 3 players against clueless Ara and midget Eric while they try to set an offside trap both heading in the wrong direction - we get punished wash and repeat.
Nah Flick, everybody has us figured out and his dumb ass is stubborn trying the same thing over and over and over again.
Fuck your 4-2-3-1, let's get back to 4-3-3 - not like we have any use out of Olmo anyway and Fermin is alright every fourth game or so. Play with DM again (Garcia would be my first choice), attack with only one wingback at a time and pull down the defensive line a little. Let Rashy/Raphinha, Ferran/Lewa and Yamal + our CM's press a lot. Build up a little bit deeper with maybe 2 less players going Kamikaze attack-style - otherwise the other teams parks the buss and just wait for the tiniest mistake (and we do those simple mistakes all the fucking time - usually from Kounde, Rashford, Casado, Fermin, Olmo).
Nah this ain't it Flick you dumbass.
Haraldinho
Well-known member
The players are not good enough to apply the Flick ball. Light press from Rashy which pushes Balde forward. Only Eric read correctly the situation. Araujo and Koundé were nowhere.
serghei
Senior Member
Eric doesn't have to worry about any other player as he has no opponent to mark in his area. He has one referrence point, the player he looks at, so it is far easier for him to focus on the one referrence point and trigger the offside line quicker. If you look at Araujo, you will see he is involved in a duel with the striker. It is tremendously hard to watch multiple players at the same time, almost impossible.
This is just stupid defending not just individually, but as a template also. They catch us 2 vs 1 because there is no press on the fullback. This happens time and time again. If the forwards are not able to press non stop for 90 mins, there is nothing in place to ensure we keep a good structure. Flick ball is mostly press, nothing else.
If you follow Flick-ball principles, and you really want to find the main player responsible for this goal, that's Rashford. He let the opposing fullback free on the ball with no pressure applied whatsoever. Now, if you arrive at the conclusion that your forwards aren't capable physically and mentally to press all the time, the responsibility of taking that into consideration and fix the defensive issues is on Flick. He does not do that. All he says is how we should play with more intensity.
OK, we know what we should do. How about what we need to do to fix the situations that are caused when what we should do isn't being done?
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jamrock
Senior Member
Thr system works when everything is perfect.
That's the case for every tactically setup or at least the vast majority, the question is what happens when things aren't perfect we are human after all is the question.
Because even when the system is on point, you need 4 goals to feel secure in a game, think about that for a second, so image when it's even slightly off.
Literally no room for error because each error leads to a 1v1 with the keeper, and then you need a neuer level keeper to save you, like he did in the covid final, but couldn't the season After or at the world cup.
No system can be great if it requires 100% perfect, because no system made man is perfect.
He simply needs to make simple adjustments like every truly great coach does, while also remaining faithful to his overall philosophy
That's the case for every tactically setup or at least the vast majority, the question is what happens when things aren't perfect we are human after all is the question.
Because even when the system is on point, you need 4 goals to feel secure in a game, think about that for a second, so image when it's even slightly off.
Literally no room for error because each error leads to a 1v1 with the keeper, and then you need a neuer level keeper to save you, like he did in the covid final, but couldn't the season After or at the world cup.
No system can be great if it requires 100% perfect, because no system made man is perfect.
He simply needs to make simple adjustments like every truly great coach does, while also remaining faithful to his overall philosophy
serghei
Senior Member
Funny thing is Flick has been praising Rashford and Yamal a lot. Even though they lack the qualities required to play his football. Yamal and Flick is like seeing Neymar at Klopp's Liverpool. The fit is not exactly there. A player with the technical qualities of Yamal will never press like a workhorse. And if your tactics depend on that... they're shite to begin with.
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