Ivan Rakitić

[El Gato]

[MENTION=21709]Havesaks[/MENTION]
You can talk all about pushing your limits, feel free. Doesn't change the endurance of either of the above one iota. There's a reason Messi and Suarez have a tendency to walk when under pressure in late stages and cock up easy counters in the last 20 mins of many games. Intense running? Sure. For about 60-70 minutes, while Rakitić usually keeps up the tempo the entire game when match fit.

As for being an ordinary athlete, Rakitić ran 11 km per game for most of the season at the age of 30. Last season he averaged 10.5 km throughout the entirety of the CL group stage. Runs more and faster than Busquets, more durable than Vidal and Arthur. For all intents and purposes, only De Jong and Arthur should be higher in rotation than Rakitić if the intention is to have you play 4-3-3 and more so if it's 4-4-2 where CMs need to be more vertical and even stronger. He's a 'boring' player with fuckall flair and struggles more getting out of pressure, but once Messi and Suarez get gassed, he seems to be the only guy who is tailored to keep you from collectively conceding the midfield. But then he's also kinda shit with the ball so it won't help against most serious opponents.

Not that I care for him. I'm just trying to understand why he's even getting dropped when in an old team like yours he's not physically the weakest and endurance matters. Must be to do with his actual football and the contract. Can't think of other reasons.

 

[Havesaks]

I don't see Suarez doing that at all. Sure he does that once or twice in a game, sporadically, but one of our problems is him not sprinting, not pressing, not moving well off the ball.

All he does is complain, make boneheaded passes, poor touches. A good game for Luis Suarez nowadays is being a liability in attack, but somehow score a golazo. That's his best version. His worst is being dogshit.

Not as much as before, not even close. He doesn't have the lungs / legs anymore, but the first years he was running and sprinting like a maniac every time it made sense. But I still feel like he is pushing to his limit when he plays - unlike Messi - and thats all we can ask for. It still looks for me like he sprints in high intense speed several at least 8-10 times a match. He just has lost pace due to age, and hasnt lung capicity as before. His style and role is way more Physically demanding than rakitic'. And so is arthurs and Robertos with all their off Ball movement. Point was Rakitic can't really be described as a physical beast, even in sense of durability, because his job isnt Physically demanding.

That said. I don't think Suarez lack of running is the sole problem here. But that Messi is even worse, and that makes 2 out of 3 in attack, and sergio/vidal also have limitations which also adds to the fuel. You can't demand more effort from a player like Suarez, because it's a natura trait for him to give it his all.

 

[Havesaks]

[MENTION=21709]Havesaks[/MENTION]
You can talk all about pushing your limits, feel free. Doesn't change the endurance of either of the above one iota. There's a reason Messi and Suarez have a tendency to walk when under pressure in late stages and cock up easy counters in the last 20 mins of many games. Intense running? Sure. For about 60-70 minutes, while Rakitić usually keeps up the tempo the entire game when match fit.

As for being an ordinary athlete, Rakitić ran 11 km per game for most of the season at the age of 30. Last season he averaged 10.5 km throughout the entirety of the CL group stage. Runs more and faster than Busquets, more durable than Vidal and Arthur. For all intents and purposes, only De Jong and Arthur should be higher in rotation than Rakitić if the intention is to have you play 4-3-3 and more so if it's 4-4-2 where CMs need to be more vertical and even stronger. He's a 'boring' player with fuckall flair and struggles more getting out of pressure, but once Messi and Suarez get gassed, he seems to be the only guy who is tailored to keep you from collectively conceding the midfield. But then he's also kinda shit with the ball so it won't help against most serious opponents.

Not that I care for him. I'm just trying to understand why he's even getting dropped when in an old team like yours he's not physically the weakest and endurance matters. Must be to do with his actual football and the contract. Can't think of other reasons.

Rakitic runs in the same tempo the enitre match, and high speed runs are demanding expotentiel more than constant average speed. Being more durable than vidal and faster than Sergio, really isnt a great feat. Last season Arthur before injuries was subbed at 70 min, not because he had worse form than Rakitic, but because he was doing crazy off Ball movement. Not that i consider Arthur to have crazy Physicality, but running 11km in a match is great, but it doesn't prove your point. The way you run means a lot. The point was his running can most players do, Messis sprinting (natural talent) and intrit, or Dembele fastness, Alba and Alves high speed running up and down the flanks, that are beastly physical attributes. What Rakitic is good at, is what "most" player could develop rather "easily", it really isnt something speciale.

Well as abive stated, Rakitic is maybe more durable than Vidal, but Vidal can play 40-45min way more intense than Rakitic who is one speed, the whole match. Also he is just to lacking in short passing, creative passing. If we had Actual wingers to play, and play with more width, I think Rakitic would be preferred to Sergio.

 

[El Gato]

because his job isnt Physically demanding.

RCM is one of the three most likely recipients of a 2nd or 3rd pass in buildup from anywhere on the pitch, ergo, his job is to never walk, which sprinters nearly always end up doing, unless they're over 30 (which Messi and Suarez are) in which case they do it all the time and hardly ever sprint as fast to recover a lost ball. Arthur sure has more to do offensively, I didn't imply he doesn't, but you can account for that. You can't on the other hand have RCM gassed particularly when Messi's been sprinting for 60 minutes. Aleña doesn't fit here, nowhere near the required level or style. Vidal does, but he's a clumsy and it's usually a coin toss on who's the better choice in a given situation.

IMO priority should be
CDM - 1) De Jong, 2) Busquets
RCM - 1) Rakitić, 2) Vidal
LCM - 1) Arthur, 2) Aleña
if in 4-3-3 which is what you'll play the most and

RM - Rakitić
RCM - De Jong/Aleña
LCM - Arthur/De Jong
LM - Vidal
in a 4-4-2

Honestly, Sergio should not be given this much slack and not more than a more suitable player for your circumstances like the Croat.

 

[EdmondDantes]

RCM is one of the three most likely recipients of a 2nd or 3rd pass in buildup from anywhere on the pitch, ergo, his job is to never walk, which sprinters nearly always end up doing, unless they're over 30 (which Messi and Suarez are) in which case they do it all the time and hardly ever sprint as fast to recover a lost ball. Arthur sure has more to do offensively, I didn't imply he doesn't, but you can account for that. You can't on the other hand have RCM gassed particularly when Messi's been sprinting for 60 minutes. Aleña doesn't fit here, nowhere near the required level or style. Vidal does, but he's a clumsy and it's usually a coin toss on who's the better choice in a given situation.

IMO priority should be
CDM - 1) De Jong, 2) Busquets
RCM - 1) Rakitić, 2) Vidal
LCM - 1) Arthur, 2) Aleña
if in 4-3-3 which is what you'll play the most and

RM - Rakitić
RCM - De Jong/Aleña
LCM - Arthur/De Jong
LM - Vidal
in a 4-4-2

Honestly, Sergio should not be given this much slack and not more than a more suitable player for your circumstances like the Croat.

The problem with playing a 4-4-2 with players like Vidal and Rakitic out wide as the LM/RM respectively is that they can't dribble past players to save their lives.

That alone would leave our entire forward play caged.

That's why Alex Ferguson played 4-4-2 with wingers and not midfielders for the most part. If you play midfielders there they need to take players on.


Griezmann, as a wide forward struggles in a 4-3-3 & 4-4-2 here partly because of that.



I understand why you suggest it, to cover for Messi and Luis' lack of movement and pressing, but we'd be too slow and docile on the ball if we played that.

 

[El Gato]

^
I'm not really suggesting you implement it long term, not with that squad full of CMs who don't have the greatest pace and endurance, you'd need a N'Dombele to do this religiously. I do think it's just sad for you to have to play Raki and Vidal outwide in some cases, but you seldom have another choice. Perhaps Roberto could be a decent enough RM in that situation as well.

I mean, this is an alternative anyhow. You can't play it for entire games on end. But it is a viable solution for when you literally can't create up top anymore having carved out a lead somehow, situations where you lead by 1 or 2 goals. It's useless when you trail or draw. But in any case, if 4-3-3 is your standard then you're almost always open in the middle at the back since it almost always just takes pace, dribble and muscle to beat you. De Jong is a must at CDM really. And if he's there, then it's just a coin toss out of Raki/Vidal who the better man is for RCM.

For 4-4-2 you could look at what RM had to do to make it work - they needed Kovacić-Casemiro partnership in the middle and Asensio-Lucas outwide. We seldom tried it in any other setup. We played it vs Villarreal where we went out Vazquez and Bale wide and Casemiro-Kroos as interiors with Jović-Benzema up top. Produced very little as a result, mostly because Vazquez is shit and Bale is episodic, but the idea is OK.
While we don't have the talent you lot don't even have the positional flexibility. Would either need to play Rakitić-Alba wide with Roberto-Semedo behind them and put everything through the left side or you're stuck without wings and forced to sit and absorb pressure. And mostly it was the latter when you tried it AFAIK.

 

[EdmondDantes]

The one thing we haven't tried yet is that 4-3-1-2 coaches used in the 90s.


It's the very system Klopp's current Liverpool has morphed into.


Messi would be in the Firmino role - only without his work rate but even more creativity, which in itself is an incredible thing to say.


The problem is, there's no room for Suarez in this formation - as the wide forwards have to be really fast and good at 1v1s. Not sure if it would suit Griezmann either.


With Alba and Semedo as the full backs, we could pull it off I think.

 

[Raketa10]

It looks like Inter really wants him. Now Barca needs to lower financial demands and try to seal the deal. IMHO we shouldn't demand more than 20-25 mil.

 

[Zidane82]

It looks like Inter really wants him. Now Barca needs to lower financial demands and try to seal the deal. IMHO we shouldn't demand more than 20-25 mil.

I was thinking more like 2 to 2.5 million..

 

[raki]

Thank you for your great service, Ivan.

 

[El Gato]

Was that CL registration rule waived?

 

[Sailor Mars]

Yes, it was waived before the start of last season.

 

[Zidane82]

Thank you for your great service, Ivan.

...... yeah .. great six months or so a few years ago

 

[Raketa10]

I was thinking more like 2 to 2.5 million..

Dude you have some serious issues. If this forum was half serious you would be banned since 90% of your posts consist only of shitting on Rakitic. Go get a life.

 

[BBZ8800]

...... yeah .. great six months or so a few years ago

Still gave more to us than Firmino...