Lionel Messi - v7

[feggydinho]

Great game today. Was playing advanced for the most part. Keep benching him in easier games and put him on for the second 45 minutes if we are not leading by 1-2 goals.

Exactly, this would be perfect

 

[sikkboy]

There was a stat but I do not remember the exact number. It seemed higher than 50% of his usual 7-8km game.

Pretty certain it was 4.2km

 

[serghei]

And his km vs Kiev? Would be interesting to compare if what he ran today is about 50% the distance he ran vs Kiev or more.

 

[Daniele]

Ok, I take it back. Did not want to offend you.


This is a relativistic thesis about history which holds partly only true when it comes the whole of human history.
But when we talk about football, sorry but things are getting less chaotic.
Strong changing rooms is a fact in football history, and there are sociological theories that try to explain why it happens.
And I don't buy that it's an exception. Maybe it's not the majority, but it's empirically observed even outside the top level.



I did not say it's univocal. I said there is strong evidence about it, and the most likely scenario based on the totality of evidence we have.
And I never said 'Messi is a tyrant' nor 'Messi is the evil of the team'
These are exaggerative caricature statements that essentially undermine the more nuanced statements that Messi critics make here about his power.
(Ok, there are some users who express themselves in that language, and serious posters can slip some times when they are emotionally unstable -which can happen to everyone btw - , but in their longer posts of analysis they avoid that kind of language and argue seriously. I am sure you can acknowledge that).



Now I don't like this self-referential information, because it attributes authority that should not play any role this forum (If I tell you also what I teach, you will take it back).
Just stick to the fact that I am putting the effort to follow all your points and answer them.

About your point, we are talking about empirical facts here, not a full blown theory that tries to uncover any laws of how reality works.
If a Messi coach says he is hard to manage, this is not a theory nor any concept that is theory-laden, it can be broken down to plain facts and recorded action: when he says Messi does not speak a lot, just looks, he expresses his complains in a specific way etc etc. There is nothing subjective here.
Player power is a concept that is grounded on plain facts about the behavior and attitude of a player, which is essentially an accumulation of anecdotal and testimonial evidence that includes events, dialogues, habits etc

You have misunderstood what the whole discussion is about. The debate whether Messi has power is about accumulation and presentation of empirical evidence that shows that or the contrary. We cannot even talk about theory at this level (it's an overstatement, apart from the casual use of the word), we are talking about common life events.

Sorry but you're the one who came up with a theory of "history that can't be grasped the moment it happens," and I contradicted it.
I understand very well the point of view of Messi critics on this forum: I do not agree, I do not think he is a weak point of the team, I do not think that his way of being off the pitch should be an element to judge his performances, that the team would play better without him (this is the pinnacle of presumption, not even koeman has yet figured out how to make the team play).
The level of criticism I find here is not found in much more analytical and competent sites. For this i think it is all a bias that feeds itself among some users of this forum.
It seems to me that in this forum there are a lot of people who are venting themselves against the players (all players from ter stegen to de jong) well beyond reasoned criticism. I think this, coupled with the fact that all contrary opinions are discredited, makes this place less interesting and with less plurality.
Thanks for the chat and Visca Barca

 

[vegitot]

The only difference today was that he scored, yall are just sleeping

That is what he is struggle this season till now.
Once he is sharp in front of goal, he is an one man army.

 

[serghei]

That is what he is struggle this season till now.
Once he is sharp in front of goal, he is an one man army.

He needs two things, not just to be sharp in front of goal. First, he needs to appear in shooting positions often, meaning he needs to make runs because he can't pick up the ball deep, dribble 2-3 guys then score as he did in his prime. Today he did both. In other games this season he did neither.

 

[serghei]

Some aspects in his game haven't declined as much as his dribbling in acceleration. For example, he can still shoot well, and he can still spot a great pass, and he can still play excellent one-touch football, he can still execute set-pieces. So he can still be effective if he does these adjustments to consider his obvious decline in some areas. And this decline is especially his dribbling in crowded areas because his burst of pace is not even half of what it was. It was once unbeatable in the first few meters.

 

[magicomessi]

What?s new Trolls ?

He is good if he doesn?t start 🤣🤣🤣

 

[sikkboy]

If he plays every week against teams who are as open as Betis he wins the Pichichi, again. Unfortunately most La Liga teams don't play that way, and Barca don't have the players capable of breaking down such walls. If it was that easy it would have happened already. It hasn't.

I think you're remebering through rose-tinted specs, he wasn't blowing low-block defenders away on a regular basis even in his prime, though he was doing it with like minded forwards/Iniesta. They just aren't at the club anymore. And yes, he has also lost a yard of space, that's to be expected. He's won a few pens, and he's won a few FKs (unfortunately not converted) so there is that aspect of his dribbles-lite!

 

[Horatio]

Some aspects in his game haven't declined as much as his dribbling in acceleration. For example, he can still shoot well, and he can still spot a great pass, and he can still play excellent one-touch football, he can still execute set-pieces. So he can still be effective if he does these adjustments to consider his obvious decline in some areas. And this decline is especially his dribbling in crowded areas because his burst of pace is not even half of what it was. It was once unbeatable in the first few meters.

Thats why I dont buy the hes finished comments. We have suffered the most because of his bad finishing. But finishing is not something you lose with decline, its more of a mental thing. Dementia kicked in?

 

[Daniele]

Some aspects in his game haven't declined as much as his dribbling in acceleration. For example, he can still shoot well, and he can still spot a great pass, and he can still play excellent one-touch football, he can still execute set-pieces. So he can still be effective if he does these adjustments to consider his obvious decline in some areas. And this decline is especially his dribbling in crowded areas because his burst of pace is not even half of what it was. It was once unbeatable in the first few meters.

I don't find myself very much in agreement.
In tight and crowded spaces, where technique and leg speed count, Messi is still unattainable.
On take ons which implie speed and long runs in the open field, he has less strength to avoid being recovered

 

[Devils]

That dummy for Griezmann's goal...whew!

 

[serghei]

I don't find myself very much in agreement.
In tight and crowded spaces, where technique and leg speed count, Messi is still unattainable.
On take ons which implie speed and long runs in the open field, he has less strength to avoid being recovered

His speed is one of the aspects in which he declined the most. He has more Iniesta's dribble at this point. He can escape tackles using his technique and can keep the ball in tight areas (as long as he doesn't overdo it like vs Alaves), but he can't beat defenders and dust them behind him as he approaches the danger area.

Thats why I dont buy the hes finished comments. We have suffered the most because of his bad finishing. But finishing is not something you lose with decline, its more of a mental thing. Dementia kicked in?

He's finished only if he doesn't adapt his game. Whether he will adapt it or not remains to be seen. It's obvious he has to stop doing some of the things he loves to do on the field because he simply declined too much in terms of acceleration over the first 5 meters. Dropping deep, dusting 2-3 defenders, and shooting or playing a defense splitting pass was his trademark move. He can't do it anymore and needs to play more like an old fashioned skilled striker, a la Romario.

If he learns to trust his teammates, and accept he won't be pulling the strings in midfield, this will up his chances to keep his scoring numbers up by maintaining a higher position on the field. Messi has always been about goals and danger in the box. He was never meant to be a Xavi like midfield organizer in his late-career like some fantasized about.

 

[Blackened]

We should sell Griezmann and get Higuain.

 

[sikkboy]

Like Romario! Who's gonna hit the byline and allow the wee guy to rumble in and side-foot it past the keeper. It's not happening.