Lionel Messi - v7

[serghei]

Basketball and Tennis is a poor comparison. Basketball is a far more individualistic sport where one player on his day genuinely can take over the game.

In football you need your team mates to support you. No player has ever won a major title singlehandedly. A player can take you very far though and Messi did that last season until it collapsed in Anfield where he actually played well for the most part.

Tom Brady has six championship rings and in four of them he didn't even play that well in the Super Bowl. His best performance was vs. the Eagles where he lost because his defense couldn't stop leaking and his team mates dropped some important catches.

That's how it goes in football too.

He doesn't speak about the sport. He speaks about the mental aspect. Both Federer and Messi have flaws in this area. Clear flaws. Let's just say fighting spirit and winner mentality aren't their strong suit.

If Federer had the mentality of Naldal / Djokovic he'd be on 30 slams minimum. Just like if Messi had Ronaldo's drive and ambition, he'd be better than Cristiano by a considerable margin. The thing is, they don't. Some part of their unusually high talent, made them weaker mentality and in terms of fighting spirit. It's a compensation of some sort.

Didn't catch Jordan, but he seems to be the only one who matched both the work dedication, the winning mentality and the talent and scoring 10/10 in all.

 

[Mitchell1978]

Yah this is fair. Him getting folded in the CL the past 8 years with him having from lackluster to horrible performances in them doesn't help his case of being the indisputable GOAT. Didn't help either that CR7 won that 3-peat and became the GOAT in the CL either.

It is what it is.

Without a doubt alot of people will still consider him a GOAT but it's not going to be that clear cut .

And yet most analysts now consider him the GOAT.

He has the stats, the trophies, the talent (technical ability, vision, speed etc), the peak, durability and longevity.
And his combinations of those things is just better then any other player ever.

Its only Ronaldo-fanboys, some old people who favour Pele/Maradona and haters/people with agenda's here that think otherwise.

And if you have to compare him to another athlete from another sport its Gretzky.

 

[JamDav1982]

He doesn't speak about the sport. He speaks about the mental aspect. Both Federer and Messi have flaws in this area. Clear flaws. Let's just say fighting spirit and winner mentality aren't their strong suit.

If Federer had the mentality of Naldal / Djokovic he'd be on 30 slams minimum. Just like if Messi had Ronaldo's drive and ambition, he'd be better than Cristiano by a considerable margin. The thing is, they don't. Some part of their unusually high talent, made them weaker mentality and in terms of fighting spirit. It's a compensation of some sort.

Didn't catch Jordan, but he seems to be the only one who matched both the work dedication, the winning mentality and the talent and scoring 10/10 in all.

You are getting far too drawn into sporting cliches of 'who wanted it more'.

Likes of Federer is/was as driven as they come and not fist pumping every two minutes does not change that.

 

[Alik]

Does Messi even speak English?

 

[Andresito]

SPORT seemingly had a fly on the wall as well.

Messi indeed expressed his doubts to new manager Koeman during the meeting between the pair, but as the get-together progressed, the Dutch manager was able to give Messi some positives inputs.
Bar?a's captain now needs time to think. [sport]

 

[serghei]

You are getting far too drawn into sporting cliches of 'who wanted it more'.

Likes of Federer is/was as driven as they come and not fist pumping every two minutes does not change that.

Fair enough if you think that. I believe that is very real.

Not everybody is built the same.

Not necessarily about who wants it more. Maybe theoretically all want it the same. But some are willing to do more to achieve it in terms of hours on the field, work and dedication.

 

[Batistuta9]

I agree to an extent but I find it hard to use words like incomparable in relation to him these days.

For reference, my standard of GOAT is Jordan. Best performances (which Messi has done on average last 15 years) plus best mentality (I would say he's second here behind CR7 or worse).

So, Messi doesn't make that cut. He's more along the lines of Federer, for whom there'll always be contention with Djokovic and Nadal because when he had the chance to become the undisputed greatest ever (all those 5-6 championship points v Djoko) he wasn't decisive/cutthroat enough.

Tennis is the worst comparison. If you lose its all in you, whereas in football you can be the best player on the pitch and still be on the losing team. Basketball has 10 players on the court at a time, one player can make much more difference than one out of 22.

 

[KingLeo10]

Basketball and Tennis is a poor comparison. Basketball is a far more individualistic sport where one player on his day genuinely can take over the game.

In football you need your team mates to support you. No player has ever won a major title singlehandedly. A player can take you very far though and Messi did that last season until it collapsed in Anfield where he actually played well for the most part.

Tom Brady has six championship rings and in four of them he didn't even play that well in the Super Bowl. His best performance was vs. the Eagles where he lost because his defense couldn't stop leaking and his team mates dropped some important catches.

That's how it goes in football too.

I'm not blaming Messi for losing these days.

I'm partly blaming him for us getting humiliated in away games/Bayern and him scoring 0 in those games. This is where my issue lies.

Liverpool was a monumental effort on his part (especially at home and even away) and I commend him for that. But we can't shield from warranted criticism. Another comparison to Messi is Lebron. Immensely talented (probably the most talented player ever or at least close to #1) but those losses to Spurs 2014, Mavs 2011 and even GSW 2015 are fair game for criticism and preclude him from GOAT level.

 

[RevoTeller]

They never could.

With the last 3 years, I've come to the full realization that they're both nothing special compared to the likes of Cruyff, Distefano, Maradona, Romario, R9 etc. They've just won a lot more individually and team-wise because they played with very strong teams (in their heydays) and were highly professional.

The GOAT label for this guy, or anyone else, makes me cringe. And I think it's about time we start appreciating the other legends who contributed to our success as well (you already do this but talking about others), even if Messi was the cherry on top.

The evidence was there for all to see this much earlier.

The 120+ goal CL scorers have scored 0 KO goals in the WC between them over 4 WCs.

Totally agree, also said it many times.

Romario and R9 are nowhere close to Messi or CR7 legacy wise.

Legacy wise, maybe (but what Ronaldo de Lima did in World Cups, if not for the fact that he was literally dying in 1998 prior to the final and for the injuries, was like Pele tier in modern times).
A peak 25-26 years old Ronaldo de Lima was never seen, we just saw his 20-21 pre-injury version, who had up to that point basically a 1:1 game-goal ratio and, at equal age, scored more than Messi and Cristiano Ronaldo combined in a much more difficult football (unlike nowadays when the first fool can score 25-30 goals per season), in all the leagues (PSV, Barca, Inter) and in the national team. No difference for him whatsoever, no necessity of a system to make him play good, no necessity of people giving him the ball to score tapins or of Penaldos.
Humiliated greates of the game such as Maldini, Nesta, Cannavaro, Thuram, Vierchowod etc. at their prime, while Messi and the fake Ronaldo couldn't even beat them most of the times when they were old.
Messi and Cristiano Ronaldo scored shitloads of goals playing with super-rich teams against nobodies for years.
Messi however is the best of the two, not even debatable: far, faaaar more talent, much closer to that of true greats such as Ronaldo de Lima and Maradona.
So yes, legacy wise they may be better at the eyes of 18-20 years old kids, but the truth is that pre-injury Ronaldo was ahead as a footballer (and not only him).

 

[Sterlingfan2000]

The only club who can afford his wages and living style is actually psg.

 

[DonAK]

Does Messi even speak English?

His wife can always translate for him lol

 

[JamDav1982]

Fair enough if you think that. I believe that is very real.

Not everybody is built the same.

Everyone not being built the same does not mean those who show more passion want it more.

Mark Cuban took that moron Skip Bayless to school a few years back for repeating this shit every day.

Federer as a youngster was banned by his father for throwing tantrums and cut out a lot of the visible emotion. That does not have any indication on how much someone wants it

Suarez is a lunatic that fights for everything and withe everyone. Doesnt make him a winner in comparison to everyone else who doesnt or likes of Xavi/Messi.

 

[serghei]

The only club who can afford his wages and living style is actually psg.

At PSG he'd be the 3rd name on the team after Neymar and Mbappe. I think he'd want to go somewhere where he'll be seen as the leader.

 

[KingLeo10]

At PSG he'd be the 3rd name on the team after Neymar and Mbappe. I think he'd want to go somewhere where he'll be seen as the leader.

I think Neymar would be on his way out to RM tbh if they somehow beat Bayern.

The snake would want to win 3 CLs in 3 teams as a star or the main man.

 

[Mitchell1978]

SPORT seemingly had a fly on the wall as well.

Messi indeed expressed his doubts to new manager Koeman during the meeting between the pair, but as the get-together progressed, the Dutch manager was able to give Messi some positives inputs.
Bar?a's captain now needs time to think. [sport]

Sport's article seems more positive then some other reports.