Lionel Messi - v7

serghei

Senior Member
City looks bad because Pep's teams get figured out after 3-4 seasons and since his style is still good old TikiTaka with 2-3 new additions, there are no new tactical options for him.
So, the only way Pep and City can go = is down.

Why are you insisting with this argument? A football cycle is 3-4 years. It's known. So, either all teams get figured out after that period, or teams simply decline with time in terms of motivation, tactics, work ethic, being injury-free etc.

You make it out as if this is a "Pep thing", like some anomaly. It's not. It's been a fact of team sports in general for many decades.
 

KingLeo10

Senior Member
Why are you insisting with this argument? A football cycle is 3-4 years. It's known. So, either all teams get figured out after that period, or teams simply decline with time in terms of motivation, tactics, work ethic, being injury-free etc.

You make it out as if this is a "Pep thing", like some anomaly. It's not. It's been a fact of team sports in general for many decades.

United 98-00
United 07-11
Juventus 96-99
Milan 03-07
Barcelona 08-12
RM 14-18

And many more examples. I can even go back to Ajax 70-73, Bayern 74-76, and so forth.

But, of course BBZ the incompetent "statistician" will focus on only Guardiola.
 

FinBarcelonafan

Well-known member
Why are you insisting with this argument? A football cycle is 3-4 years. It's known. So, either all teams get figured out after that period, or teams simply decline with time in terms of motivation, tactics, work ethic, being injury-free etc.

You make it out as if this is a "Pep thing", like some anomaly. It's not. It's been a fact of team sports in general for many decades.

True. None of us here understand what it takes to be a top player for more than 3-4 years(heck we don't even know how to be top for 3-4 years). Insane dedication. Only few rare players can keep up the effort and dedication. Ronaldo, Messi etc. Tennis Federer and Nadal for example. It's easy to start taking it easy after so many good years.

Quoting Niki Lauda:

Happiness is an enemy. It weakens you. Suddenly, you have something to lose.

Not to mention risking your body year after year, going to the battle year after year and risking yourself. It takes mental toll and at some point you don't want to risk yourself anymore, for what? Winning another trophy? You got twenty of them already. That's why the Niki Lauda quote too. It's tough to drive formula top speed if you care about your life too much. Happiness will destroy you. You value other things over the thing you do, they seem more important, like hanging with your amigos and family.. etc.

Then you add the physical decline. Mental and physical decline is normal, especially after years of great success.

I see this in poker too(I play for living). Very rarely any player stays on top for a long time, because it's so demanding mentally and probably physically too. Anything which is competitive takes a big toll on people. It's exhausting to be the best.
 
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Nello

Member
City looks bad because Pep's teams get figured out after 3-4 seasons and since his style is still good old TikiTaka with 2-3 new additions, there are no new tactical options for him.
So, the only way Pep and City can go = is down.

About Messi, no offense, but he would "ruin" any big club with his current level of performances.
He is bringing a tactical mess, Messipendencia, teams get onedimensional, he doesn't defend, he doesn't run, he doesn't move off the ball.

He brings 100 cons in this moment and only a few pros in this moment: a good pass here and there and a goal here and there.

He is done at the top level.
He could dominate only in Usa or Argentina.
But even there, only for a few Months.

His body, legs and motivation are gone.

There is no way back.


Absolute truth bombs. Love the amount of nuance and perspectives you are bringing to these topics.
You'd make Socrates proud with the amazing amount of knowledge you posses about different players, coaches and football in general.
 

BBZ8800

Senior Member
Why are you insisting with this argument? A football cycle is 3-4 years. It's known. So, either all teams get figured out after that period, or teams simply decline with time in terms of motivation, tactics, work ethic, being injury-free etc.

You make it out as if this is a "Pep thing", like some anomaly. It's not. It's been a fact of team sports in general for many decades.

I do it because for 7-8 years we had to read things like: TikiTaka is not figured out, Pep's style is not figured out, Pep's style can not get figured out, it stopped working not because it is figured out but because we stopped executing it correctly.

For years people acted (especially those who started to watch football during Pep's Barca) as it is by far the best style/era in a history of world's football.
And almost as if it is Godlike/eternal style which can never be figured out or get neutralized.

Serghei, to make an analogy: you and I agree that Messi used to be a GOAT but that he is done and horrible today.
And then both you and I are pissed at users like Malvolio who write things as: no, this is just a dip in form, he will return, it's because of his bad teammates/bad coaches and similar nonsense.

Well, people who still think that Pep is a real deal in 2020, for me are as deluded as Messi's fanboys on this forum.

You, KingLeo and others have lately came down from the Pep's cloud and you have made some steps towards more realistic ground.
But still, imo, you are way overrating current Pep.

Imo, it is almost impossible that Pep will ever come even close to his great days.
Why?
1. Teams all over the Europe have figured out his style since 2009
2. He is insanely stubborn and he will never change. He will be trying the same shit till death with 2-3 small cosmetical changes, but realistically, he is playing exactly the same football for 12 years, the same as Mourinho.
This is why Mou more or less died as a coach.
He will offer a good season once in 7-8 years but otherwise it's the same, old, predictable thing.
3. Football has evolved. It is not 1992 or 2011 anymore.
We can read a lot on our forum how we have to go back to our roots and reinvent some of Cruijff's or Pep's ideas.
But what if nothing will help because we have to play against cyborgs today?

When Cruijff coached Barca, it was possible to have a short Cf like Romario or the lightest pivot ever: Pep himself.
Could you win CLs today with a short forward like Romario and players like Pep?
Lol, only if you'll play in women's competition.

So, original Cruijffs football can't work anymore.

Then, Pep's was just a modern version of Cruijff's football.
It worked for 3 years, with the best generation ever and with prime Messi.
But to show how flawed Pep's ideas are, even the best generation ever had like 20% of wins in away CL matches during Pep's 4 years.
And we lost almost every CL tie against any semi-physical team:
2009 robbery against Chelsea
2010 defeat to Inter
2012 Chelsea again

The only win is against Real in 2011 and wins against 442 naive Man Utd with 40 years old Giggs as one of two CMs playing against our 7-men midfield consisted of 3 midfielders, 2 wingers, false 9 drop deep Messi and false midfielder Alves.
Ferguson was naive and didn't know how to play against us back then.
7 vs 2. No wonder that we destroyed them for fun.
3. And then you have La Masia who are producing players like Riki Puig, as if they don't have clocks in that center and as if time has stopped in May of 1992 or 2011.

So, imo, it is harder and harder to execute Pep's type of football because everyone has figured it out plus other teams have moved towards cyborgs (Bayern, Liverpool).
And in spite what our dreamy fans think, in 2021 and onwards you won't be able to beat cyborgs with a fkng Riki Puig and Trincao type of players.

So, not only that I think that Pep himself will sank like a Titanic, but also it is highly unlikely that Barca's original DNA football will come back on top in the future without some MAJOR fundamental changes.

And then, our main candidate is Font who's main idea is to hire Xavi, probably the most stubborn, deluded and stuck in time person after Pep.

There is a strong reason why Brasil stopped winning WCs after 2002.
They won 5 out of 12 world cups from 1958 to 2002.
They are a Titanic since 2002.
Why?
Because football has changed.
Their soft samba style can't win against European cyborgs anymore.

From 1986-2002, in 5 WC finals in a row, we always had 1 South American team.
From 2006-2018, out of 8 finalists, 7 were Europeans and only 1 South Americans.
Why?
Imo, because Europeans have turned towards combination of technique-pace-strength-stamina-height.
And European teams are a combo of technique and physique.

Yet, Brasil and Argentina are stuck in 90s.
Brasil have Jesus, Coutinho, Arthur.
Argentina has Messi, Aguero, Dybala, Lautaro.
South American teams are still more about technique than about physique.

But not only that technique and a softer football are in their roots, but they also have problems with genetics.
Here is a list of average male height per country:
186 Dinaric alps
184 Bosnia
182 Sweden
181 Netherlands
180 Croatia
180 Denmark
180 Belgium
180 Norway
178 Germany
174 Argentina
171 Brasil
171 Colombia
167 Ecuador

And then, no wonder that South American countries rely mostly on possession football.
Since they can't cross.
On the other hand, when European teams play against South Americans, they have more options for both possession and crosses/corners/long balls/headers.
They have more options in defense and in attack.
What can Argentina do?
= play through the middle, try to dribble past 5 players and yet somehow not to concede 2-3 from taller and often better physically prepared European teams.

In today's world where all countries developed a decent footballing technique and reasonable tactics, the only other difference maker left is= physique.

And if you don't have physique due to genetics, like South Americans, you are dead in a modern-cyborg football.

Another example:
In 2010, Inter had 6 South Americans as starters in a CL final.
In 2015, Barca had 5.

Yet:
2016, 17, 18: Real 2
2019: Liverpool 2
2020: Bayern 1 (Thiago)

I don't have time and energy, but if I would check stats, I am quite sure that they would show how an average height of CL winners have gone up in recent years.

So, my point is= imo, football will move into NBA's direction, where it will be impossible to play without insane cyborg-ish physique in the future paired with very good technique.

And since both Barca, Pep, Spain and Brasil rely on less physical and more technical-smart movement ideas, it's no surprise that all of them suck in the last 10 years on the highest level.
Technique and smart movement alone can't beat teachnique-smart movement-cyborgs anymore.

So, Pep is stuck in 1992 with light link-up forwards and ball playing CBs.
Plus TikiTaka is figured out.
And the football world evolved.

So, yes, posts about overhyping Pep and his style are as bad as posts from Messi's fanboys who think that this is just a dip in form.
 

JamDav1982

Senior Member
It is not about being 'figured out' as it wouldnt have worked at Bayern and City. Their opponents are not coming across it for the first time at those sides and oblivious to how he played previously.

Peps biggest issue in recent years has been moving away from his style in the CL and overthinking it after some heavy defeats.

City are far from done and will go close in EPL if not win it and be one of the top sides in CL.. it all depends on what approach Pep takes in biggest games.

Players also may become tired of his demands after a few years and up until now he has bowed out before having to really rebuild. This is first side that Pep is trying to do that after losing some big players and it will depend on how he can develop players he brought in.

I still think City will click and go on a run to win the league.
 
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eaman

Active member
It is not about being 'figured out' as it wouldnt have worked at Bayern and City. Their opponents are not coming across it for the first time at those sides and oblivious to how he played previously.

Peps biggest issue in recent years has been moving away from his style in the CL and overthinking it after some heavy defeats.

City are far from done and will go close in EPL if not win it and be one of the top sides in CL.. it all depends on what approach Pep takes in biggest games.

Players also may become tired of his demands after a few years and up until now he has bowed out before having to really rebuild. This is first side that Pep is trying to do that after losing some big players and it will depend on how he can develop players he brought in.

I still think City will click and go on a run to win the league.


Exactly hes had success with that system for 12 years now. If it was a out figuring city out other teams would've done it after the first few games of the season. Instead city were beating teams by plenty of goals when they were winning the league for the second time. If pep decided to go to ac milan for instance he would do the exact same thing and more than likely have success until the players slacked off a bit and nothing to do with other teams figuring them out. Teams have had 8 years to figure his style out before he came to the premier league and you cant tell me they didnt have plans in place to stop it. Probably the same plans they have to try and stop him these days
 

BBZ8800

Senior Member
It is not about being 'figured out' as it wouldnt have worked at Bayern and City. Their opponents are not coming across it for the first time at those sides and oblivious to how he played previously.

I disagree.
In La liga, teams were shocked at first.
In the 4th season, even weak Spanish teams found ways to steal points all the time.

About EPL, for West Bromwich and Stoke, it is not the same to watch Pep's football on tv and actually trying to tackle his players and try to steal the ball from those technical magicians.

So, there was still an element of shock snd unknown when Pep came to a new country.
But since people are not stupid, you can win against them for 3-4 times but not after that, they will learn the lesson.

For anyone with IQ higher than 100, you can sit down, watch 5 City's matches in a row and make a list of patterns which type of actions do they use the most, what their wingers will do, how will Bernardo and Kevin usually dribble and pass.
And write it down on a paper.

And then, there is a huge difference between:
1) I have no clue how to defend against City
2) and ok: I have figured out 10 of their most common attacking moves. I will try to block their 10 most common actions.
If they offer something new, bummer.
I will add that 11th trick on the list of patterns for the next match.
But after some amount of matches, there are no new tricks left.

And these two points make a difference between 5:0 and 2:1/1:1 matches.

Now, some will reply: but, you can say the same about any coach.
Well, some other coaches might change a lot of things during their career.
But Pep, apart from a few minor changes, he is trying to sell the same trick for 12 years.

At Bayern, he got a winning team and continued winning, without winning a CL.
At City, he got the best team in EPL, spent 1 billion of oil money, won two titles and he probably won't win it again.

If he'll move to Juve or Psg, people will say: his magic still works, lol.

On the other hand, do you think that he could recreate his magic at let's say Man Utd, Arsenal or Chelsea, where he won't inherit the best team in a country, where he won't be able to spend 1 billion and where he'll play against opponents who are already familiar to his style?
No way.

If he'll stay in England, his career will probably follow Mou's fate.
From a magician to a meh whiner.

Look, even Mou could win a title with Juve or Psg.
Can he do it in EPL after 10 years?
Probably not.
The same will happen with Pep.

Just follow this and the next season.
Their general quality and self esteem will go lower and lower over time.

Pep is a short term magician.
He is not Alex Ferguson who managed to recreate magic over and over for 20 years with several generations of players.

Till now Pep has never even made a change of generations in his teams.
He builds a team, he wins, he stops winning, he runs away.
1. he has never stayed longer than 4 years till now
2. He can't change his style
3. He is bad at man management. Let's see how will he rebuild City's current generation and how will he cope with the pressure of internal battles once when you have to sell your players who brought you titles 3 years ago.
Till now, he was solving problems in this way:
I don't like Etoo = sell, and no discussing at all
I don't like Ibra = sell
I don't like Mandzu = sell
I don't like Yaya = sell

His crazy personality worked good while his teams were winning.
But now, when his team is figured out and his ship is sinking, I would rather put my money that he will lose his mind and end in a mental institution than that he will successfully rebuild a team, succeed in man managent and recreate magic with his good old style.

Again, I am just playing numbers game.
I have seen that story too many times in all sports.
The odds are extremely against Pep in England from now on.
 
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JamDav1982

Senior Member
Absolute nonsense.

Every team in Germany and EPL knew how Pep would approach the game and he didnt even come close to winning EPL first season anyway so falls flat there.

Teams were not 'shocked' about his tactics and City won... City won after that when all teams who had seen him at Barca/Bayern for years and one year in EPL.

Alex Ferguson took 6 years to win the title at United and then had the time and desire to rebuild time after time.

Pep has won a lot quicker and not yet had to rebuild teams or had much desire to.

Your point about Peps 4th season at Barca is equally as bad... Pep changed his formation and approach for majority of that season trying to be ahead of the curve and it didnt work. Not teams figuring out his previous tactics as you make out.
 
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sikkboy

New member
At the end of the day it still comes down to the players you have, and how they execute (assuming they're suitably motivated).
 

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