Hans-Dieter Flick

[serghei]

They have an extra midfielder who is a hardworker in deeper areas. The main difference is Fabian and Neves support Vitinha and play like CMs, while Fermin and Olmo play like no10s or second strikers. Their actual support in defense is minimal. This is a big part of the reason why the work Pedri and De Jong have to do is unreasonably extensive.

It is a far better distribution of workload in midfield in PSG's side, before it even gets to other weapons they have.

 

[JamDav1982]

There midfield can play that way as have far more freedom in middle of park due to their FBs and wide players posing such a threat... they are good at it when left in that room also.

The main difference by far is the full backs and wide players they have it allows them to play that way.

It is unique to the point they are about only team doing it.

It is impressive how much Pedri and FDJ cover for deficiencies in the team but means less focus just on being midfielders.

Also Dembele drops deep a lot and then can use his pace to burn into the space left.. there is less need for a 10 with him and if teams let him drop and get on ball and turn he causes havoc running at them.

Barca sold him and are paying 150m over 4 seasons for Lewa who is shit at anything more or less unless can get balls into the box.

 

[jamrock]

Yep

One structure in midfield is easily superior to the other

 

[serghei]

Yep

One structure in midfield is easily superior to the other

With the players we have, 3 man midfield would be superior without doubt. At least vs bigger sides.

If you'd have some top DM and some mean fast defenders in 1 vs 1, you could maybe sacrifice a midfielder for a 2nd striker.

 

[JamDav1982]

Which is allowed due to players they have.

Such as the current balondor who most claimed was over rated at Barca while bumming up Lewa as some top signing.

Or Kounde at RB.

 

[JamDav1982]

With the players we have, 3 man midfield would be superior without doubt.

Who is the 3 man midfield?

Xavi tried playing three man midfield and it failed.

More or less no other team play 3 man midfield in way want Barca to and they have the funds to sign who want a lot more.

Dont make out Lewa was a top signing and Dembele was over rated if want team to even attempt to play how PSG does.

 

[serghei]

Almost all highly succsessful teams played 4-3-3 in the last decade and more. Madrid with Kroos, Casemiro, Modric, Klopp with Milner, Henderson, Fabinho, Pep with Rodri, KDB, Gundogan, and this PSG. Only 2 man midfield was with Flick in 2020.

 

[JamDav1982]

Change the midfield and still have same issues of Kounde, Balde, Gerrard, Araujo etc being poor in build up and midfield being asked to help a lot.

Still have likes of Kounde being poor 1v1 defender and having to help him with double up any time 1v1.

Have no striker to do what Dembele does or be threat he is when drops and turns in that 10/AM area with space due to the 1v1 players either side.

It is impossible to play way PSG do with players have and make out midfield can replicate the roles they have.

Thats not to say things cant be changed to improve things.. any team can but to point to PSG and say replicate that is largely useless.

It is impossible. Dont have the players and have sold likes of Dembele and paying far far more for Lewa..

Thats what Flick has.

 

[JamDav1982]

Almost all highly succsessful teams played 4-3-3 in the last decade and more. Madrid with Kroos, Casemiro, Modric, Klopp with Milner, Henderson, Fabinho, Pep with Rodri, KDB, Gundogan, and this PSG. Only 2 man midfield was with Flick in 2020.

Thats not true and again likes of Real had unbelievable wide players and full backs.

Rodri was not even a sure starter at City before went to double pviot and it took that for Pep to win the CL.

That is a bad example.

Same with Spain.. took double pivot to win again after years of Busi laregely single pivot failing.

Klopp for most part absolutely did play double pivot also.

Argentina won World Cup with that set up to support Messi.

 

[serghei]

This is not about single pivot or double pivot. These are phases and adjustments in-game, as often the midfield 3 will change shape depending how the opponent sets up. It's about if you use a 2 man midfield, or a 3 man midfield. Not a second striker instead of a midfielder. Like you yourself said regarding to how Fermin plays.

Flick wants more players upfront to carry his ultra advanced press. That's why he prefers to use fewer midfielders. The severe penalty is that when this pressing fails, and it fails often lately, the poor 2 guys (Pedri and De Jong) have their work cut out for them. Outnumbered and outworked.

 

[JamDav1982]

It is when you are saying teams dont play 2 midfielders starting deeper when those same teams do.

When name midfielders like Rodri who got to his level in a two and coaches like Pep who won playing that way.

There can always be tweaks but pointing to PSG is useless as Barca cant play that way with players have.

Could say play a more balanced three and in own way if have that idea but PSG is impossible to replictate the midfield of.

Agree Pedri and FDJ are asked to do more than just about any other midfield and if had the players to offer options would be a help.

As said before for me the best AM have to help is Olmo.. on form and fit as he has a brain and can pace it but he looks like consumed with statting it and taking constant risks also as all Barca attackers are.

There is a time and place for it and it is all very chaotic... win games in chaotic way and lose them also that way.

Has a bit of ego crept in to those front players who all want to better their team mates on these high goals/assists count? Quite possibly and in turn doing a bit less on other side of ball?

Something Flick needs to eradicate if is and maybe explains some of his comments this season.

 

[serghei]

It is when you are saying teams dont play 2 midfielders starting deeper when those same teams do.

When name midfielders like Rodri who got to his level in a two and coaches like Pep who won playing that way.

What are you talking about. I just explained some pages ago that even Pep Barca had moments when Xavi would sit closer to Busi. Call it a double pivot for all I care, I don't mind. I disagree with the terminology but call it however you like, this is not the point.

Point is you need to ensure midfield superiority. Not to have one player detached from the shape to carry some ultra pressing plan.

Other managers weren't even satisfied with a 3 (not counting fullbacks), which is why false 9 appeared into the game, as a way to get the striker, technically your most advanced player on the field, into build-up as well.

Even Zidane thought in 2017 why not add another midfielder instead of Bale, and use Benzema - Ronaldo, get rid of the extra winger, and use Isco in a diamond 4-4-2 to strenghten it more. Hell, and that was the strongest Madrid in ages. Flick is one of the few who undervalues just how important it is to control the midfield in a game of football these days.

 

[JamDav1982]

What are you talking about. I just explained some pages ago that even Pep Barca had moments when Xavi would sit closer to Busi. Call it a double pivot for all I care, I don't mind.

Point is you need to ensure midfield superiority. Not to have one player detached from the shape to carry some ultra pressing plan.

Other managers weren't even satisfied with a 3 (not counting fullbacks), which is why false 9 appeared into the game, as a way to get the striker, technically your most advanced player on the field, into build-up as well.

You literally named teams lilke Peps City and Rodri as playing 433 when they didnt....

Dont make those comments if dont like being corrected on them.

Xavi for most part played ahead of Busi...It was a clear single pivot 433 set up compared to what teams are playing now.

There are also a ton of times Pedri is ahead of FDJ and vice versa.. doesnt mean Barca are not playing a double pivot.

Claiming teams like City, Klopps Liverpool played 433 is nonsense.

There is a clear clear difference between what Pep played with Busi and Xavi compared to the double pivot teams play now and way Pep played to get best from Rodri.. how Spain changed to play.

Even Pep barely touched false nine after left Barca. It was players he had at time.

 

[serghei]

You literally named teams lilke Peps City and Rodri as playing 433 when they didnt....

Dont make those comments if dont like being corrected on them.

Xavi for most part played ahead of Busi...It was a clear single pivot 433 set up compared to what teams are playing now.

Claiming teams like City, Klopps Liverpool played 433 is nonsense.

Of course they did. They played 3 midfielders constantly. Rodri, KDB, Gundogan... these were always playing for City. So the template is surely 4-3-3. Grealish left, Haaland center, Foden right. 4-3-3 is the main platform. Of course from that you have a large number of variations.

 

[JamDav1982]

Of course they did. They played 3 midfielders constantly. Rodri, KDB, Gundogan... these were always playing for City. So the template is surely 4-3-3. Grealish left, Haaland center, Foden right. 4-3-3 is the main platform. Of course from that you have a large number of variations.

City played Rodri and Gundogan in a double pivot with Gundogan the one of the two that had more freedom.

Clear as day.

They defended in more or less 442 and built up with double pivot.

When Gundogan went forward Stones stepped up into midfield to help.

Same as happened if Rodri was the one of the two to push up. Although happened less.

City still play double pivot and Reijnders for example struggling to fit in so far as not used to playing as deep.