Hans-Dieter Flick

[JamDav1982]

What are you talking about. I just explained some pages ago that even Pep Barca had moments when Xavi would sit closer to Busi. Call it a double pivot for all I care, I don't mind.

Point is you need to ensure midfield superiority. Not to have one player detached from the shape to carry some ultra pressing plan.

Other managers weren't even satisfied with a 3 (not counting fullbacks), which is why false 9 appeared into the game, as a way to get the striker, technically your most advanced player on the field, into build-up as well.

You literally named teams lilke Peps City and Rodri as playing 433 when they didnt....

Dont make those comments if dont like being corrected on them.

Xavi for most part played ahead of Busi...It was a clear single pivot 433 set up compared to what teams are playing now.

There are also a ton of times Pedri is ahead of FDJ and vice versa.. doesnt mean Barca are not playing a double pivot.

Claiming teams like City, Klopps Liverpool played 433 is nonsense.

There is a clear clear difference between what Pep played with Busi and Xavi compared to the double pivot teams play now and way Pep played to get best from Rodri.. how Spain changed to play.

Even Pep barely touched false nine after left Barca. It was players he had at time.

 

[serghei]

You literally named teams lilke Peps City and Rodri as playing 433 when they didnt....

Dont make those comments if dont like being corrected on them.

Xavi for most part played ahead of Busi...It was a clear single pivot 433 set up compared to what teams are playing now.

Claiming teams like City, Klopps Liverpool played 433 is nonsense.

Of course they did. They played 3 midfielders constantly. Rodri, KDB, Gundogan... these were always playing for City. So the template is surely 4-3-3. Grealish left, Haaland center, Foden right. 4-3-3 is the main platform. Of course from that you have a large number of variations.

 

[JamDav1982]

Of course they did. They played 3 midfielders constantly. Rodri, KDB, Gundogan... these were always playing for City. So the template is surely 4-3-3. Grealish left, Haaland center, Foden right. 4-3-3 is the main platform. Of course from that you have a large number of variations.

City played Rodri and Gundogan in a double pivot with Gundogan the one of the two that had more freedom.

Clear as day.

They defended in more or less 442 and built up with double pivot.

When Gundogan went forward Stones stepped up into midfield to help.

Same as happened if Rodri was the one of the two to push up. Although happened less.

City still play double pivot and Reijnders for example struggling to fit in so far as not used to playing as deep.

 

[khaled_a_d]

No. Pedri is slow and weak.

Running the most doesn't necessarily make you the most physical.

He is niether weak or slow, at all. And running the most is one of the criterion to make ypu more physical players, fpr fact.
And someone like Frenkie is more athletic than any PSG midfielder.

 

[khaled_a_d]

Of course they did. They played 3 midfielders constantly. Rodri, KDB, Gundogan... these were always playing for City. So the template is surely 4-3-3. Grealish left, Haaland center, Foden right. 4-3-3 is the main platform. Of course from that you have a large number of variations.

Pep was never just dependent on the midfield trio to control the game. A player like Dani Alves was equally important to our midfield dominance to our own midfielder, and his decline was massive part to the decline of our midfield.

If you keep looking at the midfield trio, then you are simply having a tunnel vision in this topic.

Pep for example rarely tried to increase number of midfielders to control the game, but always looked at the other two lines to create midfield superiority.

It is the main thing we lack atm. The other 7 men don't create that numerical superiority, but rather stretch our midfield.

Similar to what happened when Messi moved to AM under Lucho. It forced Rakitic to cover for Alves and it fucked our midfield, despite the fact that theoretically it looked like Messi was 4th midfielder in this set up.

 

[jamrock]

All coaches try to add to Midfield superiority with the other lines, doesn't change the fact that the Midfield base was 3 man.

Well all coaches except flick, he's tries to add numbers to the attack to build superiority, that's just fundamental to his core and score 3+ goals per game, a to account for the position likely getting two with his tactics

 

[serghei]

I disagree completely. Hell, at Pep, even used Bernardo as a winger despite not having pace to give him extra control in midfield when needed. When he had Mahrez, he played a more typical 4-3-3. With Mahrez, Sane, Sterling.

He did the opposite of what you say. Pep is always about securing midfield. Would load as much as 5 players there if needed. Of course it helped having a beast like Walker who could pose attacking threat on the right if Bernardo went inside. That's not the point.

 

[JamDav1982]

False.

Almost all coaches now are setting up with the double pivot and a clearly defined more attacking player on front of that.

 

[serghei]

All coaches try to add to Midfield superiority with the other lines, doesn't change the fact that the Midfield base was 3 man.

Well all coaches except flick, he's tries to add numbers to the attack to build superiority, that's just how fundamental core to score 3+ goals per game, a account for the position likely getting two with his tactics

3 or more. At a minimum he played with 3.

Check how many serious games Pep played with only 2 out of his midfielders on the field. Which were mainly KDB, Gundogan, Rodri, Stones. Or pre Rodri and Stones with only 2 out of Fernandinho, Bernardo, David Silva, Gundogan, or De Bruyne.

 

[JamDav1982]

3 or more.

Check how many serious games Pep played with only 2 out of his midfielders on the field. Which were mainly KDB, Gundogan, Rodri, Stones.

Pep has played double pivot for years on and off.. mostly on.

Quite clearly two deeper and one more attacking midfielder on front of them in the set up.

Played it last season and this also.. with Reijnders/Nico struggling with it a bit.

Its where Gundogan played the season before Barca signed him.

It is also how Spain played last summer and currently are.

It is how near enough every team in the World Cup will set up also.

 

[jamrock]

Closest pep has come to playing a pure 4231 similar to what flick & other coaches are doing is last season & we saw how that worked out.

3 man Midfield, a box or something that's gives him superiority in what he's said 1m times is the most important area of the field.

Yes other players from different positions help, but that's tactics 101, every coach does that, players are static in their positions

 

[JamDav1982]

No team is trying to play a strict 4231 not even Barca but City have played double pivot in centre midfield for years and still are now.

They have almost all adapted for now to have a double pivot in build up to offer better options in building up from back.

Rodri didnt just improve and have more freedom from thin air.. he has more freedom in a two.

Xavi tried 3 man midfield.. it failed... most top coaches play double pivot in build up now.

 

[serghei]

There is no such thing. You say he played double pivot, and then list 4 midfielders. Stones, Gundogan, Rodri, and KDB. That's a triple pivot there.

Find me games where Pep ditched one of his many midfielders in favor of Foden at no10. He always played a minimum of 3 in midfield. But if the game required it, he loaded more into that area. Including Bernardo who was not a traditional 1 vs 1 pacy winger, but a former midfielder himelf. After Mahrez got replaced with Bernardo, the midfield superiority increased.

 

[JamDav1982]

There is no such thing. You say he played double pivot, and then list 4 midfielders. Stones, Gundogan, Rodri, and KDB. That's a triple pivot there.

Who listed four midfielders?

 

[serghei]

The most light midfield Pep played at City is when he had three typical wingers in the squad in Mahrez, Sterling, and Sane. And it was still a 3 man midfield. Sterling, Mahrez, Sane, Aguero rarely played at the same time, and certainly not vs any serious opposition.