Semi-Neutral
Sir Alupp Heynrguson
^footyfan What? Nowadays, he has two or three people man-marking him every game, how many defenders do you want him to drag away?
footyfan
Calma, calma
I would encourage all Barca fans to spend half n hour and watch both awesome videos.
I don't want him to, that's the whole point of what I was saying. Leave that to Iniesta who has been doing it much more often and for much longer.
@jiopi: Go to 2:19-2:22 on the Messi video. That would not be considered a dribble on its own by whoscored/opta. Yet a lot of people would consider that as beating the man/dribbling and Iniesta does that quite consistently. This is where different definitions/views come into the picture.
I don't want him to, that's the whole point of what I was saying. Leave that to Iniesta who has been doing it much more often and for much longer.
@jiopi: Go to 2:19-2:22 on the Messi video. That would not be considered a dribble on its own by whoscored/opta. Yet a lot of people would consider that as beating the man/dribbling and Iniesta does that quite consistently. This is where different definitions/views come into the picture.
Last edited:
J
jiopi
Guest
Umm, now you lost me.
J
jiopi
Guest
Yeah everybody in today's football can run with the ball, and dribble basically means just kicking the ball. In statistics dribble is measured by it's effectiveness, by beating a man with a dribble.
Whenever player dribbles into a corner, it means he can't dribble to the goal, and will choose the path where he thinks he can go. If Iniesta thought he had a path to the goal, he would take it every time. That's what separates Iniesta and the rest of mere mortals from Messi. Messi will run at you, through you, no matter what the situation.
Whenever player dribbles into a corner, it means he can't dribble to the goal, and will choose the path where he thinks he can go. If Iniesta thought he had a path to the goal, he would take it every time. That's what separates Iniesta and the rest of mere mortals from Messi. Messi will run at you, through you, no matter what the situation.
footyfan
Calma, calma
Yeah, but it's not always the smartest option.
And now you are essentially agreeing with me. I said I would prefer Messi for a penetrating run (or a dribble as you call it), while I prefer Iniesta for a different kind of run, where by "running/gliding" (not gonna say dribble because you will just keep arguing) on the wings (or) horizontally (or) backwards while maintaining close control of the ball creates spaces for OTHER teammates.
And no, not every player in the world can "run" with the ball like Iniesta.
J
jiopi
Guest
Dribbling is basically kicking the ball, and how fast, how fast frequency and how precisely you can kick it, measures how good you are at it. Messi is in different level, that's why he can run through basically any situation with greatest of speeds. Dribbling into a corner is easier than that, and Messi most surely can do that, you just said it yourself. But that would be the waste of his talent.
No, didn't say that though.
footyfan
Calma, calma
Implying Iniesta mostly dribbles towards the corners...
Also, I'm talking in the present tense. Messi has not yet shown that he can do what Iniesta does. It requires a different way of thinking because, once again, Iniesta dribbles many times to drag defenders away from other players whereas Messi's dribbling has a different purpose.
Until Messi actually does what Iniesta does, I will prefer Iniesta for what he does. I won't automatically assume that Messi can dribble like Iniesta just because he can dribble in more difficult situations (once again, "more difficult situations" is very open to interpretation). That's like saying beating Real Madrid guarantees beating Real Sociedad.
J
jiopi
Guest
You are really illogical here. Real Madrid and Sociedad are two completely irrelevant instances and situations, you can't tell which is more difficult situations by the name of the team.
And what hasn't Messi shown? That he can suck defenders, against Benfica the whole team tried to stop him, and he made a through pass, just to find the whole own team was offside. I can show countless of situations like that, he does that almost every game.
DonAndres
Wild Man of Borneo
Agree with footyfan here. Iniesta's dribbling is more mazy, running in circles or horizontally/vertically to create space for himself and to change the play in favor of his teammates. Messi on the other hand is capable of disrupting the defense (like Robben, Ribery, Cristiano, etc.) penetrating them and creating a deadly attacking situation the moment he gets even a little free space. If he gets the space to start sprinting with the ball, it's near impossible to get him to lose it as he can change direction and feint with unbelievable ease.
Ursegor
World Champion
Messi dribbles like a forward. Iniesta dribbles like a midfielder. Messi runs at you like a train hitting you. Iniesta is more of finesse dribbler who keeps the balance between dribbling and keeping possession in tight spaces. They aren't as penetrating as Messi's dribbles (Iniesta is also not as strong to shrugg off as many defenders as Messi can). On the other hand Messi attempting his dribbles in midfield would make him a total turnover machine.
footyfan
Calma, calma
Well, that's exactly what I was implying. You can't always tell which is a more difficult situation to dribble based on whether a player is dribbling straight at defenders or going in other directions.
footyfan
Calma, calma
While whoscored already have turnover and dispossession stats (Messi is most dispossessed and second most turnovers in Barca), the next step would be to also record where the turnover happens - final third or middle third. Final thirds like Messi generally are more excusable, but I think he also loses the ball a bit in midfield.
J
jiopi
Guest
That's doubly illogical. You are using something completely irrelevant to wrongly point about something. Dribbling into corner is result of inability to advance the play directly by dribble, it isn't voluntary as it's forced by the defenders, which means it's easier.
For Messi it would be like counting to only 80, when you can count to 100.
J
jiopi
Guest
Dispossession statistics is connected to successful dribbles, and Messi's conversion ratio between dribbles and dispossession, as pointed earlier is much better than Iniesta's, even with less space, more markers and so on. Turnovers isn't about dribbling, but making killer passes and taking shots on goal.
Put Messi on the midfield dribbling in more space, with more time and less simultaneous opponents, and his conversion ratio will be even better.
Home of Barca Fans
