21 - Frenkie de Jong

[JamDav1982]

He should play as a DM strictly out of necessity for the time being. Busi is done basically. And against smaller teams, where Busi looks good still, I'm sure De Jong would look good as a DM as well. The difference in quality is too big when you compare an 80m. Barca player with a dude from Elche or whatever.

We need to stop playing old players that have proven they are past it at the level we need to be at. There is no future with these players, they can only get even older, slower, and more of a liability.

Agree with that to find solutions now just not long term but do think he is best DM overall in squad.

 

[Bobo32]

He never really got a chance as the lone DM, but I feel that it's his best position because he can drop between the CBs and build up from there. Can also make runs while Pedri/Ilaix or whoever else covers for him, he doesn't have to be stuck in that DM position, the point is that our mid should be fluid, interchanging between them.

I don't think he's that good as a b2b, can do the job surely but he just doesn't have end product to be a viable option full time.
Don't see 3 at back working long term so using him as a libero is not the answer imo, only here and there. Otherwise we should make plans to get back to 4-3-3 and play that full time.

I think a lot of balance is needed in order to play like that. Pirlo is the one I can come up with who succesfully played a bit like that from that position, but he had at least one ball winner or "coverer" in front of him, as well as great defences where at least one side back was defensively focused most of the time. Do you have a better example of a good or great team playing without someone in a more static role in midfield?

Apart from that, I think every time FdJ played that position instead of Busquets, play was inefficient and unelegant. Frenkie recieved the ball with his face backwards, turned around, looked, didn't see anything, passed it back, got it again, looked, tried to dribble, passed it back again, was out of position, ball went to Mats, who kicked it away, then Frenkie was in Dests positon and the ball was on the other side of the pitch.
Busquets is the GOAT CDM, he stands in between lines and gets the ball into the next space between lines effortlessly, every game.

te amo Barca probably said the same thing better.

 

[BBZ8800]

I would have said the same about Yaya Toure for us... and Frenkie is more of a DM than him. If we find a defensively sound box to box midfielder to cover for him when he roams (hopefully Ilaix, but trusting two 18 years old right now is a bit much) we are good to go.

I haven't seen enough of Ilaix yet, but:
1) DM Frenkie = he is not Barca level of creative in the final third
2) AM Pedri = can't score, lacks a killer instinct of a CAM

With those two in a midfield three, we either need Haaland to neutralize their lack of shooting.
Or you need a third CM who will both cover for Frenkie in defense and who will neutralize Pedri's lack of shooting.

So, Ilaix would need to be a hardworking defensive machine who will also dribble, create and score.

But then, Ilaix doesn't seem like a possession recycler type of a player and he likes to bomb forward (like Rafinha used to do), so he might leave giant holes behind his back.

And if he is leaving holes in a positional sense, how will he cover for Frenkie, who needs a help in the first place?

Our fans have lots of excuses and credits for favorite players, but Frenkie is also a weird fit.
Not as bad as Cou or Griezz, but a not a good 433 fit either.

 

[FinBarcelonafan]

Yeah, I have to say, Frenkie's been great terrible in the big games, not like he was with Ajax. He was amazing in those games, when Ajax had their run. Not sure what's different? Better system in place? How can we make DeJong "thrive"?

 

[serghei]

I haven't seen enough of Ilaix yet, but:
1) DM Frenkie = he is not Barca level of creative in the final third
2) AM Pedri = can't score, lacks a killer instinct of a CAM

With those two in a midfield three, we either need Haaland to neutralize their lack of shooting.
Or you need a third CM who will both cover for Frenkie in defense and who will neutralize Pedri's lack of shooting.

So, Ilaix would need to be a hardworking defensive machine who will also dribble, create and score.

But then, Ilaix doesn't seem like a possession recycler type of a player and he likes to bomb forward (like Rafinha used to do), so he might leave giant holes behind his back.

And if he is leaving holes in a positional sense, how will he cover for Frenkie, who needs a help in the first place?

Our fans have lots of excuses and credits for favorite players, but Frenkie is also a weird fit.
Not as bad as Cou or Griezz, but a not a good 433 fit either.

He can do it only if he is smart and knows when to time his runs in the box. Basically not run like a mad man at random times just to be an extra man in the box. Do it when there's a real chance he could get at the end of a chance. Something Rakitic used to do well in his first seasons with us. That's where attacking IQ comes into play. Rakitic was an attacker I think at Schalke, he played with no10 on his back. So he had this knowledge of attacking space and being in the right place at the right time.

If he has the brains of Dembele, of course, as you say, he'll randomly bomb forward, catch air, then leave gaps in midfield that we'll struggle to plug.

 

[khaled_a_d]

He looked ridiculously dominant for Ajax as a DM. The tough part for us will be to balance his style defensively. But I am sure will manage to do that post Busquets. We would be rather incompetent not to.

He was playing as part of 2 DM system, that failed to work here and unlikely to be tried here.
Him as sole DM is a waste IMO, we will never be able to play DM with a guy whose forward movement is huge part of his game.

Because it is pretty obvious De Jong is not going to produce on the offensive end as a box to box. Not against anyone of note.

Then he should be sold, he has no place here otherwise
3 in the back won't last for so long (next season maximum) and he has no other position to play in Barca other than b2b.

 

[FinBarcelonafan]

He was playing as part of 2 DM system, that failed to work here and unlikely to be tried here.
Him as sole DM is a waste IMO, we will never be able to play DM with a guy whose forward movement is huge part of his game.




Then he should be sold, he has no place here otherwise
3 in the back won't last for so long (next season maximum) and he has no other position to play in Barca other than b2b.

He doesn't work with Busi, because Busi can't cover ground. If you play the 2 DM system you need great movement. Busi doesn't have the physical skills for it.

 

[Bobo32]

Yaya was a good player in his way.
His first year he impressed in a team that I think didn't get as many points as Barcelona already have this year, with 8 games to go.
The next year, Pep instantly played Busquets instead of him, and Yaya was soon to be sold, but played unexpectedly well as a CB when he was needed there. It's a long time ago, but just as now, I remember the difference with Busquets at CDM compared to Yaya, everything went so much smoother. I don't think Yaya is a good example of a great CDM at Barcelona.

Edmilson and Marquez were very static and defensive minded players, not at all roaming like Frenkie does in that position.

 

[mc_lovin]

I haven't seen enough of Ilaix yet, but:
1) DM Frenkie = he is not Barca level of creative in the final third
2) AM Pedri = can't score, lacks a killer instinct of a CAM

With those two in a midfield three, we either need Haaland to neutralize their lack of shooting.
Or you need a third CM who will both cover for Frenkie in defense and who will neutralize Pedri's lack of shooting.

So, Ilaix would need to be a hardworking defensive machine who will also dribble, create and score.

But then, Ilaix doesn't seem like a possession recycler type of a player and he likes to bomb forward (like Rafinha used to do), so he might leave giant holes behind his back.

And if he is leaving holes in a positional sense, how will he cover for Frenkie, who needs a help in the first place?

Our fans have lots of excuses and credits for favorite players, but Frenkie is also a weird fit.
Not as bad as Cou or Griezz, but a not a good 433 fit either.

I agree, but when you have a topclass Libero/CM/DM hybrid you make it work and find a place/setup for him. Usually there arent a ton of great midfielders to chose from. And its not like we already tried, we are still riding our "old" generation. When we go all in and it doesnt work I will reassess.

 

[khaled_a_d]

He should play as a DM strictly out of necessity for the time being. Busi is done basically. And against smaller teams, where Busi looks good still, I'm sure De Jong would look good as a DM as well. The difference in quality is too big when you compare an 80m. Barca player with a dude from Elche or whatever.

We need to stop playing old players that have proven they are past it at the level we need to be at. There is no future with these players, they can only get even older, slower, and more of a liability.

Busquets is the only midfielder we have that can control the tempo of the game.
Against elite teams, that is useless skill as they will run around him, or sit back and live on counterattacks where he is useless.
Bug against teams below that level, Busquets is -sadly- essential to our team.
In the remaining 9 games of the season , AM are the only big team we will face. So, in almost 90% of games Busquets is essential.

 

[FinBarcelonafan]

Busquets is the only midfielder we have that can control the tempo of the game.
Against elite teams, that is useless skill as they will run around him, or sit back and live on counterattacks where he is useless.
Bug against teams below that level, Busquets is -sadly- essential to our team.
In the remaining 9 games of the season , AM are the only big team we will face. So, in almost 90% of games Busquets is essential.

Good point. Busi is never going to "settle" the game in big matches. Instead, he becomes a liability.

 

[serghei]

Busquets is the only midfielder we have that can control the tempo of the game.
Against elite teams, that is useless skill as they will run around him, or sit back and live on counterattacks where he is useless.
Bug against teams below that level, Busquets is -sadly- essential to our team.
In the remaining 9 games of the season , AM are the only big team we will face. So, in almost 90% of games Busquets is essential.

So, just to make sure I understand, you think Busquets is essential to us winning games vs Elche, Granada, Valladolid, Eibar and such? Please... obviously not true. I'm sure that if I dig up the games Busquets missed, in most of those we easily won the games.

 

[khaled_a_d]

That's where attacking IQ comes into play. Rakitic was an attacker I think at Schalke, he played with no10 on his back. So he had this knowledge of attacking space and being in the right place at the right time.

I followed Raki early career because Schalke was one of my favourite teams back in that 2005-2010 period.
Raki was a number 10 there, a very talented one who replaced Ozil in 2008 (who has just replaced their very talented Lincoln , was very entertaining player btw)
So yes, he always had that knowledge on when and where to attack, his vision and scoring was underrated during his time here, when he was basically sacrificed for 2.5 seasons between his 2nd and 4th year as a babysitter for Messi and our RB.
That said, I think FDJ has the instincts to be a scorer as a b2b, a guy who can score 12 goals and 10 assists per season.

 

[Dammie10]

I liked his honesty and personality when arriving at Barcelona, saying that he wasn't satisfied with his performances, that he needed to improve and so on (he also correctly demanded more of the team).
What is your opinion about his personality, since you speak his language and also followed him, is he humble and willing to learn or is he losing his head a bit do you think? It must be strange with so much hype as he got around him so fast...
I also heard he was a very dominant AMC in his earlier years, do you know about that?

This situation with a big talent becoming a bit lazy (not in a conscious or classic way, but unconciously losing the willingness to adapt) is a classic one, and I can see some of it in Pedri right now...
Pep understands this, and this is probably why we see him in clips as with Kimmich, and why he handled Foden as he did, etc.

I liked his honesty and personality when arriving at Barcelona, saying that he wasn't satisfied with his performances, that he needed to improve and so on (he also correctly demanded more of the team).
What is your opinion about his personality, since you speak his language and also followed him, is he humble and willing to learn or is he losing his head a bit do you think? It must be strange with so much hype as he got around him so fast...
I also heard he was a very dominant AMC in his earlier years, do you know about that?

This situation with a big talent becoming a bit lazy (not in a conscious or classic way, but unconciously losing the willingness to adapt) is a classic one, and I can see some of it in Pedri right now...
Pep understands this, and this is probably why we see him in clips as with Kimmich, and why he handled Foden as he did, etc.

At first, I like the way you put an example on Pep with Foden, Kimmich. You?re right about that. Pep is a maestro at reading those things and it?s no wonder why almost all players become much better under him.

On the Frenkie question I will answer it from mine opinion and that off course doesn?t has to be the right one. I think he has a great attitude and in his answers always give that smart reactions where the interviewer is mouth dead directly. Not in a bad way but very friendly he can takes away critics like a counter punch. He?s a very well mannered guy that doesn?t like the expensive stuff. His father always says that his whole life was about football. Never drank alcohol or ate too many chips. You can see he?s very basic. What I found interesting though was that his father said that himself and the younger brother are more intuitive and Frenkie thinks good about everything before making choices in life. You can see that a little bit in his football also. Not that intuition play what you sometimes need. Not to mention the fact that the whole country said he was doing good. So you can?t expect him as a 21 year old seeing it differently.

So he defenetely doesn?t loose his head and it looks like he?s willing to learn. But can he learn all those things? The problem is that in Holland most people think very basic about the game. I don?t know why it?s like that. The motto is ? act normal then you already do weird enough ?. So those crazy scientists who really really pointing out details aren?t there too many. Eventhough we have great footballers. He?s smart but not street smart. imo those are often the football players who look at the whole package. They will always find a way out to become better just like on the tough streets. It?s difficult tho because some do change directly when you never thought about it and visa versa. So I hope he will learn to become better

And yess he was playing as a classic 10 in the Willem 2 youth. I never saw him there. The first time was at the European cup u19 and then Ajax u21 very often. Again I will tell what imo happened. He was really fantastic in the U21 as 1 of the 2 attacking cm?s just like Barca plays. His speed and flexibility with the ball was a true eye catcher. Nobody could stop him. Ran from back to the front with the ball many times. Frankly he was wayyy more creative then and also with imagination in his passing. Then he came in the first team and was great again as a attacking cm with van de beek ( later became the 10 ) as a 6 and Ziyech as the other cm. For some reason coach Keizer put him in the back as a defender. I couldn?t believe my eyes. There he also was very lightfeet with great speed on the ball. He had a serious ankle fracture in March 2018. His season was over and when he came back IMO he wasn?t the same ever again. He still was fast and flexible but you could see his balance was a little bit weaker and he didn?t dare to shoot anymore. Maybe weaker spot now? Still because he 3 classes above the rest he could get away with everything. If you studied him before you could see the difference. He became 1 of the 2 double pivot with Schone the next season and his creativity began to fade away more and more. So yess I think he would have been way bettet when always played as a attacking cm ( 8 ). All those switches haven?t done him good to focus on 1 position

 

[Bobo32]

At first, I like the way you put an example on Pep with Foden, Kimmich. You?re right about that. Pep is a maestro at reading those things and it?s no wonder why almost all players become much better under him.

On the Frenkie question I will answer it from mine opinion and that off course doesn?t has to be the right one. I think he has a great attitude and in his answers always give that smart reactions where the interviewer is mouth dead directly. Not in a bad way but very friendly he can takes away critics like a counter punch. He?s a very well mannered guy that doesn?t like the expensive stuff. His father always says that his whole life was about football. Never drank alcohol or ate too many chips. You can see he?s very basic. What I found interesting though was that his father said that himself and the younger brother are more intuitive and Frenkie thinks good about everything before making choices in life. You can see that a little bit in his football also. Not that intuition play what you sometimes need. Not to mention the fact that the whole country said he was doing good. So you can?t expect him as a 21 year old seeing it differently.

So he defenetely doesn?t loose his head and it looks like he?s willing to learn. But can he learn all those things? The problem is that in Holland most people think very basic about the game. I don?t know why it?s like that. The motto is ? act normal then you already do weird enough ?. So those crazy scientists who really really pointing out details aren?t there too many. Eventhough we have great footballers. He?s smart but not street smart. imo those are often the football players who look at the whole package. They will always find a way out to become better just like on the tough streets. It?s difficult tho because some do change directly when you never thought about it and visa versa. So I hope he will learn to become better

And yess he was playing as a classic 10 in the Willem 2 youth. I never saw him there. The first time was at the European cup u19 and then Ajax u21 very often. Again I will tell what imo happened. He was really fantastic in the U21 as 1 of the 2 attacking cm?s just like Barca plays. His speed and flexibility with the ball was a true eye catcher. Nobody could stop him. Ran from back to the front with the ball many times. Frankly he was wayyy more creative then and also with imagination in his passing. Then he came in the first team and was great again as a attacking cm with van de beek ( later became the 10 ) as a 6 and Ziyech as the other cm. For some reason coach Keizer put him in the back as a defender. I couldn?t believe my eyes. There he also was very lightfeet with great speed on the ball. He had a serious ankle fracture in March 2018. His season was over and when he came back IMO he wasn?t the same ever again. He still was fast and flexible but you could see his balance was a little bit weaker and he didn?t dare to shoot anymore. Maybe weaker spot now? Still because he 3 classes above the rest he could get away with everything. If you studied him before you could see the difference. He became 1 of the 2 double pivot with Schone the next season and his creativity began to fade away more and more. So yess I think he would have been way bettet when always played as a attacking cm ( 8 ). All those switches haven?t done him good to focus on 1 position

Thanks for this answer, a very interesting read!
I will say that as with Cruyff, it's so often the opposite of what it appears like from the outside. I used to think about the dutch as being a very analytic, argumentative, ideologic but also a bit "free-thinking" people when it comes to football... I used to have a dutch coach who was a master at details, very free-thinking.

I fell in love with Frenkie in Ajax CL run, as everybody else. Then I was curious to see him at Barcelona, but it didn't take me long to think that the CB position would suit him better. I didn't know then that he had ever played there before... I can see that it could've halted his progress back then, that it wasn't right, and maybe he even got used to some (for him destructive) patterns because of that, making him play worse at midfield. A bit ironic then, because now I think this will be the role that he has the best potential to become great in, I still have very high faith in him in this libero position.