20 - Sergi Roberto

[serghei]

First, this was a counter, the midfield overplayed. The player is arriving with the ball under control and with one run in front of him.
Barcelona have three central defenders and the left wing back in place and the right wing back sprinting back to help. I'll have to see more extended footage in order to judge if Roberto is at fault for arriving late, but he is not in a position to mark the player from the start of the clip I saw.
This is the situation. To talk about zonal vs man marking is a bit out of place in a situation like this, in the first place.

But it is YOU who blame someone for losing his man, apparently it's zonal marking but with man marking for the wing backs, or you really believe this is the zone for a wing back in a 3-5-2?
I am the one calling for STANDARD zonal defense, pressuring and making sure the ball goes on the outside.

I only want you to define two things for further discussion
1: What is the defensive zone for the wing back in a 3-5-2?
2: What are the duties for the central defenders in a situation like this?

Yes, because there is no 3-5-2 in place when one player breaks shape like Umtiti did. Umtiti is not in the backline, so the 3-5-2 shifts into a 4 at the back. There are only 2 central defenders there in that action, Umtiti is far off because he goes in midfield in an attempt to intercept and stop the action in its early phase (before the pass is made). So, you have Pique and Mingueza, who are obligated to maintain a short distance between them. You can't have CBs 30m apart from each other. This is why Mingueza, when Pique covers for Umtiti, has to make a move and occupy a more central position, and keep a sufficiently close distance to Pique. They are the CBs there.

When this happens, the wide player is handed over to Roberto.

Look at Roberto he only has one job there. The problem is Mingueza is much faster than Roberto. So, when Mingueza drifted centrally, he probably did it faster than Roberto can adjust with his slow speed. That's why you need fast wing players. When these exchanges happen, they need to happen swiftly, very quickly. So when you have a slower player in the mix there is a delay in these positional exchanges. And it shows instantly in situations like these.

You have a point if Umtiti doesn't take himself out of our defense. If this doesn't happen, He stays there, Pique is where Mingueza is, and Mingueza takes on the Granada player. Roberto in this case is a bit more advanced and closer to the line, about where Alba is. And of course, like Alba he will stand in space with no defensive role.

 

[Bobo32]

This is the situation on the first frame of the video, the pass is just about to be made.
Keep in mind it's a counter, it's not only Roberto who is adjusting his position, even though he is the only one sprinting.

Please use your MSPaint skills and show what are the responsibilities of each player in this situation.

 

[Porque]

The only mistake Roberto made was pausing his run when he thought Mingueza would make his interception. That allowed the attacker to get away from him.

The goal is more on Mingueza for failing to stop the ball, and then after the attacker is passed the defence, on Stegen for not closing his angle progressively (to give time for the defence to try and cover the goal line).

Instead he rushes out too late and too fast and leaves the gap for the ball to go under him. Poor play.

EDIT

You can watch the goal here in 0.25 speed a spot the major errors.

-Mingueza failing to intercept the ball. Possibly using the wrong foot.
-Stegen not reacting initally and closing absolutely no angle. Not with his positioning, not with his body shape. Where Machis shoots the ball is precisely where Stegen should be standing.

Then the minor errors
-Umtiti going to close his man (expected move in that action)
-Roberto passing his pace in expectation of Mingueza intercepting.

 

[mc_lovin]

I dont mind smaller mistakes at all, who are part of the game, and generally I am not a fan of over-analyzing goals. Robertos problem is that after so many years you start asking yourself what he actually adds. I guess his passing stats look decent, but then again I dont want a pseudo midfielder at RB. Hes just incredibly bland as a footballer - like Ter Stegen. From two real characters (Valdes+Alves) to this.

I personally blame Semedo for this whole mess, who made a bland footballer look less bland, because of his superior blandness. If that makes any sense

 

[Bobo32]

---
You can watch the goal here in 0.25 speed a spot the major errors.

-Mingueza failing to intercept the ball. Possibly using the wrong foot.
-Stegen not reacting initally and closing absolutely no angle. Not with his positioning, not with his body shape. Where Machis shoots the ball is precisely where Stegen should be standing.

Then the minor errors
-Umtiti going to close his man (expected move in that action)
-Roberto passing his pace in expectation of Mingueza intercepting.

I don't know that Roberto loses much speed there. He does not drive the pace for two steps, but would anything change if he did?

After looking at the goal once more, the easy adjustment outside of Mingueza killing the space earlier and thus having an easier interception would be on Pique. If he was two steps up and to his right, he too could intercept the pass, or at least give Mingueza less space to cover.

I think it's a very strange position to take to say that Umtiti should not have moved towards the ball. Should an opponent be free to move towards the back 3 without any pressure? This is one of the main advantages with a back three, that the defenders can press more easily.
Umtiti is also limiting the ball holders options, cutting the left flank, prompting a pass towards a player who is alone vs. 3 (Roberto is too far behind for the through ball, but could help later if Mingueza was able to slow him down)

I dont mind smaller mistakes at all, who are part of the game, and generally I am not a fan of over-analyzing goals. Robertos problem is that after so many years you start asking yourself what he actually adds. I guess his passing stats look decent, but then again I dont want a pseudo midfielder at RB. Hes just incredibly bland as a footballer - like Ter Stegen. From two real characters (Valdes+Alves) to this.

I personally blame Semedo for this whole mess, who made a bland footballer look less bland, because of his superior blandness. If that makes any sense

I agree with you on not overanalysing goals after the fact, there are always bigger mistakes made in every attack, not leading to goals...

I can understand tiring of Roberto as a whole, and questioning him. I think "bland" players are sort of needed in a team though and being very harsh on Roberto is more a reflection of the team not functioning as a whole, and him being there for a while...
The wing backs in Koemans 3-5-2 become very isolated. The setup works best with crossers on these positions (and thus attackers great at converting crosses). I don't like the setup for this team.
Roberto was extremely eager to run in the last game, he looked like Pedro sometimes with his constant runs in behind the defence. He wasn't able to recieve many balls behind the defence though but instead got the ball on his feet a lot, and his options were very limited. He chose the quick easy option to give it back to Messi or Frenkie, more centrally, almost every time, which lead to frustration from some people.

Dest plays pretty similarly, but is a bit more eager to try dribbles (which very rarely leads to something good though). He passes backwards most of the time too, though, it's almost the only option available. Alba spams crosses a bit more, I think it's better that only he does it than Roberto or Dest doing it too... Their main attacking duty is instead to provide width, and thus more space for the central players.

 

[serghei]

View attachment 8894

This is the situation on the first frame of the video, the pass is just about to be made.
Keep in mind it's a counter, it's not only Roberto who is adjusting his position, even though he is the only one sprinting.

Please use your MSPaint skills and show what are the responsibilities of each player in this situation.

It's easy for me. There is a pair there, Roberto and Maquis. The responsibility of Mingueza is not to let the ball pass him if it is played through his zone (he fails, we can all agree here), and the responsibility of Roberto is to stick with Machis and stop him from shooting unbothered (also fails).

You can clearly see the back 4 in that picture. Roberto is the RB there, and his man scores. First, his positioning is not great as it is, he should be more in line with the CBs. If you look at the images, he's got only one opponent in his zone and he allows that opponent to get behind him. And in a foot race, he's weak as it is.

The problem is basically that Roberto is a slow player. And this is why you don't want slow players paired with fast attackers. Because they are liabilities whenever they have to hold on in 1 vs 1, let alone when they have to catch a bit of ground.

 

[Bobo32]

Here is an easy solution to that goal, orange dots showing where they could've been when the pass was made. (As Pique and Mingueza aren't sprinting at the start of the clip, I say they could be two steps differently in any direction)

• No room to play through the defence
• Pique is closer to the passer, if Umtiti is dribbled
• If the ball is played over the top, Mingueza is able to pressure him outwards, and both Pique and Roberto will then be able to cover him
• If the ball is played exaxtly as it was, Mingueza can attack it facing forward, and find Roberto with an easy pass for the counter
• Mingueza could of course also take a step up with the offside trap instead...

I guess sergheis solution is that Sergi Roberto should've been faster...

 

[serghei]

The positions of Pique and Mingueza are very good, as a proof Mingueza gets to the ball and should block the pass based on position, but fails because of a technical error. Roberto's is not so good. Roberto should be facing his marker, not allow him to get in front of him. You only allow a marker in front of you when you wanna play offside trap.

It is true what [MENTION=22241]Porque[/MENTION] says. The biggest error is Mingueza's. The problem is these "minor" errors from Umtiti and Roberto happen several times a game, while an error like this one from Mingueza happens once per 10 games or more.

 

[Bobo32]

The positions of Pique and Mingueza are very good, as a proof Mingueza gets to the ball and should block the pass based on position, but fails because of a technical error. Roberto's is not so good. Roberto should be facing his marker, not allow him to get in front of him. You only allow a marker in front of you when you wanna play offside trap.

If Mingueza positioned himself differently from the start, he would be less likely to make that mistake.
Piques position is improved in my picture.
Roberto is not in position to follow that player in this case, it is correct. I say he shouldn't be, he should be more concerned with attack and in this case to offer an easy option for the counter.

Do you want to expand on Umtiti being out of position? Should the passer rather be unpressed instead in this case?

 

[serghei]

If Mingueza positioned himself differently from the start, he would be less likely to make that mistake.
Piques position is improved in my picture.
Roberto is not in position to follow that player in this case, it is correct. I say he shouldn't be, he should be more concerned with attack and in this case to offer an easy option for the counter.

Do you want to expand on Umtiti being out of position? Should the passer rather be unpressed instead in this case?

He should be more concerned with attack? Seriously? It's the DEFENSIVE PHASE here. He focuses on attack when we have the ball. Jesus... The RB in a back 4 has to focus on attack instead of keeping his man in check... that's new.

About Umtiti, no, it's common to press a striker a bit outside your zone, the problem is Umtiti is a finished player and once he does that, he usually is schooled. You can't intercept or press well when you are slow and you have no knees... So, what he did was fine, how he did it is... expected for a player like that who last played proper football 3-4 years ago.

 

[Porque]

I don't know that Roberto loses much speed there. He does not drive the pace for two steps, but would anything change if he did?

After looking at the goal once more, the easy adjustment outside of Mingueza killing the space earlier and thus having an easier interception would be on Pique. If he was two steps up and to his right, he too could intercept the pass, or at least give Mingueza less space to cover.

I think it's a very strange position to take to say that Umtiti should not have moved towards the ball. Should an opponent be free to move towards the back 3 without any pressure? This is one of the main advantages with a back three, that the defenders can press more easily.
Umtiti is also limiting the ball holders options, cutting the left flank, prompting a pass towards a player who is alone vs. 3 (Roberto is too far behind for the through ball, but could help later if Mingueza was able to slow him down)

I don't think it would have made a big difference regarding Roberto. He may have been a bit nearer to his man to possibly influence the play. But I think we are all splitting hairs by overanalysing Roberto in that action (along with Umtiti).

Umtiti for example made the right decision to close his man (that is the point of having the back 3, so the CBL and CBR can push to anticipate and close the attacker down). I just inferred the minor error was with the judgement and getting passed by the attack. Could he have tactically fouled at that point for example?

BTW, Barca B is starting now so another chance to have a look at Comas, DM me if you need a link.

 

[Neeraj]

I'm confused. I could have sworn I saw a contract renewal being announced on the FCB website a couple of days back?

 

[serghei]

I don't think it would have made a big difference regarding Roberto. He may have been a bit nearer to his man to possibly influence the play. But I think we are all splitting hairs by overanalysing Roberto in that action (along with Umtiti).

Umtiti for example made the right decision to close his man (that is the point of having the back 3, so the CBL and CBR can push to anticipate and close the attacker down). I just inferred the minor error was with the judgement and getting passed by the attack. Could he have tactically fouled at that point for example?

BTW, Barca B is starting now so another chance to have a look at Comas, DM me if you need a link.

These "minor" errors happen all the time with them. Why do you think fans are fed up with Roberto and Umtiti? I'll tell you why. People want to see fast players in defense who are strong 1 vs 1 and don't get folded with ease or owned physically even by players from midtable clubs.

That's been a problem in this team for years.

 

[jairzinho]

Even if Bob was closer to him man, he would still get beat for pace. That's how slow he is. He is too slow to be effective in that position especially when up against a pacey winger.

 

[Messi983]

I'm confused. I could have sworn I saw a contract renewal being announced on the FCB website a couple of days back?

You've probably just had a nightmare.