8 - Pedri

Temptation said:

So Messi and Ronaldo know more about tactics, systems and coaching than Pep?

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Serghie used to think he knew more than Barca legend Ronald Kidman who was ruining the talent of Riqui Puig.

As ever these rules apply when fit.

The 433 is the best system in football because of how tactical flexible it is, you can instantly switch to almost any formation without making a sub, because technically the 2 of your CM should be able play a 10 if needed.

As we see with PSG the way the switch positions all over the pitch, but especially in midfield is why I said since last season they are better than us, the only player we have in our Midfield with that level of flexibility is Pedri & gavi at his best, which isn't surprising, given that they are both Spanish & 1 masia


See the way Ruiz, merano, zubi, rodri, all those guys can switch and feel comfortable in at least 2 positions in Midfield.

It seems olmo left Spain to Early before his Midfield education was done.

One of a few key reasons, could give 10 more, PSG shows a lot of them

Single pivot is out of the meta these days because of man-oriented high press that eliminates a sole DM as a progression option. Double pivots (regardless of whether the second pivot is a midfielder, CB or fullback out-of-possession) are the norm. Lucho has a very fluid system.

te amo barca said:

Single pivot is out of the meta these days because of man-oriented high press that eliminates a sole DM as a progression option. Double pivots (regardless of whether the second pivot is a midfielder, CB or fullback out-of-possession) are the norm. Lucho has a very fluid system.

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Agree. People think double pivot is more defensive but it isn't if it's played the way PSG play it, because their anchormen are very good on the ball and can dribble to beat the press and set the team on the attack.

As with everything, the same formation can be played in wildly different ways depending on coach philosophy or personnel. The formation is much less important than the strategy, game plan and tactics, as formation shifts throughout the game anyway and in defensive and attacking phases.

Maradona37 said:

Agree. People think double pivot is more defensive but it isn't if it's played the way PSG play it, because their anchormen are very good on the ball and can dribble to beat the press and set the team on the attack.

As with everything, the same formation can be played in wildly different ways depending on coach philosophy or personnel. The formation is much less important than the strategy, game plan and tactics, as formation shifts throughout the game anyway and in defensive and attacking phases.

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True, but you can still see the main template and the main structure. This is usually seen when an attack is initiated and before positional exchanges happen. And PSG's main framework is built on the typical Barcelona 4-3-3.

Of course when the opponent makes moves and presses the formation changes to adapt to those moments. This was the case often even with Pep Barcelona. Xavi would often be found next to Busi in situations that called for it.

Football evolves every season and is cyclical and may well move back towards 433 and not the double pivot near enough all the top coaches are playing.

Barca is not historically a 433 club and the way PSG play it is not ike Peps 433s either.

Cruyff didnt play 433 for most part, Rijkaard won with 4231, Lucho Barca was a bit of a hybrid and closer to a 433 but more or less built for front three and players covering for them.

As said.. the PSG full backs give them a huge advantage to play the way they do as cant leave them as a weakness open in way teams have been doing to Barca with Kounde and Gerard recently.

Lucho fell into that approach a bit and he deserves credit for it but it was some long planned system. He changed things as wasnt working and put Dembele CF etc put more on full backs and team took of as middle of park opened up.

Barca dont have the full backs or pace up top to stretch teams and open up space in midfield.

Barca have not signed one 1v1 dribbling player with pace in all these years at wing or CF and have CBs playing full back.

serghei said:

True, but you can still see the main template and the main structure. This is usually seen when an attack is initiated and before positional exchanges happen. And PSG's main framework is built on the typical Barcelona 4-3-3.

Of course when the opponent makes moves and presses the formation changes to adapt to those moments. This was the case often even with Pep Barcelona. Xavi would often be found next to Busi in situations that called for it.

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Yeah true, good points. I just feel sometimes people get very hung up on the formation (see United fans' obsession with Amorim's three at the back) when actuallly movement and positions are fluid. Like you say, the formation is mostly the main/'reset' structure until it needs to be adapted in-game. And that adaption happens a lot anyway.

jamrock said:

The 433 is the best system in football because of how tactical flexible it is, you can instantly switch to almost any formation without making a sub, because technically the 2 of your CM should be able play a 10 if needed.

As we see with PSG the way the switch positions all over the pitch, but especially in midfield is why I said since last season they are better than us, the only player we have in our Midfield with that level of flexibility is Pedri & gavi at his best, which isn't surprising, given that they are both Spanish & 1 masia


See the way Ruiz, merano, zubi, rodri, all those guys can switch and feel comfortable in at least 2 positions in Midfield.

It seems olmo left Spain to Early before his Midfield education was done.

One of a few key reasons, could give 10 more, PSG shows a lot of them

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I prefer 4231 but these 2 are definitely the best and most versatile formations in the game.

For 433 you need a brilliant DM. 4231 would suit more squads because you don't need 1 DM specialist at the base.

It changes all the time.

None of Pep, Arteta, Maresca, Xabi etc are playing single pivot and they all have the money to sign players for any system they want.

Will other clubs follow Lucho and PSG.

Possibly but they have stock piled pacey 1v1 attackers and have the full backs for it others dont to play same way.

Gavi would not even be remotely close to Frenkie in a fluid midifeld. We have all seen that more than enough times.

Even in 4231 though, most teams don't actually play with two pure defensive midfielders at the base. It's either one or even none, quasi DMs who are adept on the ball and good at beating the press and taking the ball from the defence or goalkeeper and keeping the play going. Just because someone screens well or intercepts doesn't mean they're a DM.

I wouldn't even call Busquets a DM, in the defensive sense. He played there but he was more of a deep lying starter of the play, his game was built on positioning and interceptions and making play from deep. The old traditional sense of a DM from the 70s and 80s is someone who runs about a lot and/or flying into tackles (though they were sometimes good footballers too, like Souness). The game has moved past that.

A 4231 with two water carriers at the base won't achieve much. Defensive midfielders need to be good footballers now too.

No team plays double pivot with two sitters now and havent for years.

It is all one more defensive and one more freedom but both move more and neither fully sit as a pivot.

That is what PSG is not like a traditional 433. They done have that one sitting pivot and often two drop.

Every single top team has moved away from 433 with a sitting pivot. There is not one team that plays like that currently as it became and issue in the builld up and too robotic/static.

PSG dont play 433 with a sitter.

They try to pull the game as wide open as can with pacey threats at full back and front three and teams struggle to press in middle as such a threat on outside if do.

The midfield then are allowed freedom to play off one another and find the ball and progress it to open up space to the pacey threats.

Temptation said:

I prefer 4231 but these 2 are definitely the best and most versatile formations in the game.

For 433 you need a brilliant DM. 4231 would suit more squads because you don't need 1 DM specialist at the base.

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Yeah, true. It's just that with a 4-3-3, you can more easily switch to a functional 4-2-3-1, 4-4-1-1, etc. without making any subs.

With a 4-2-3-1, the classic 10 or SS limits what you can do.

It's like I said before the Inter game last season: Inter's setup naturally exploits the weakness in flicks' approach. One of the main ways to counter that was to have Olmo drop deeper to help, but Olmo is so limited when asked to play as a CM that it just didn't work.

With a 4-3-3, like Enrique uses, you can be more flexible/fluid with your approach.

It's the same reason why I said PSG's midfield was better than ours last season and the forum was like, "Hell nooo!" They simply have players that can match us technically but outdo us tactically, due to their flexibility.

The de Jong fanboys think I was coming at him, when I've always made it clear since last season the main weakness in our midfield against PSG and teams like Inter is Dani Olmo, because he's strictly a number 10 and nothing else. Frankie is secondary because he simply can't execute any of the positions outside of a 4-2-3-1 at a high enough level.

But of what we have, if everyone is fit, playing against PSG, the midfield should be:

Pedri, de Jong,
Gavi

Because it gives us the best option to match them.

There are 2 types of DMs commonly seen in modern Football:

The Destroyer/Ball winner: Caicedo, Makelele.

The Deep Lying Playmaker/Regista: Xabi Alonso, Old Pirlo.

Busquets is a unique profile who's more about press resistance and possession recycling. Busquets has major defensive weaknesses in his game although he's very good at interceptions, positioning and reading the game. Busquets doesn't have the passing range of Pirlo and Alonso but is an excellent short distance passer.

Rodri is a unique profile too that's tough to categorise.

Both Rodri and Busquets play DM or number 6 in a 433 formation. You can call them anchor midfielders if you like. They're still DMs technically. Just have unique qualities and profiles.

Kante isn't a DM as some casuals believe. Kante is a midfield general who pops up everywhere and usually plays alongside an anchor midfielder like Jorginho or in a double pivot. Kante is closer to a box to box midfielder (he isn't exactly that either) even though Kante is better at winning the ball and tackling than all these players. He wins these duels everywhere around the pitch which makes him one of the most unique players in the history of the sport.

The midfield three will stuggle v PSG no matter how set up unless Barca find a way to get a better handle on those full backs/wide players.

That is the task for teams facing PSG.. trying limit their wide pace without giving up too much room in midfield.

Barca failed at is as every team has for a while.

Teams will start man marking their full backs soon.

For Barca maybe need to take risk push numbers over to Mendes side and make it a 1v1 battle of Raphinha v Hakimi on the other up and down the park.

Likes of Lewa badly impacts team v PSG as he allows them to press so high up with no threat in behind.

Ferran wasnt great v them but showed what movement can to in space they leave.

Temptation said:

There are 2 types of DMs commonly seen in modern Football:

The Destroyer/Ball winner: Caicedo, Makelele.

The Deep Lying Playmaker/Regista: Xabi Alonso, Old Pirlo.

Busquets is a unique profile who's more about press resistance and possession recycling. Busquets has major defensive weaknesses in his game although he's very good at interceptions, positioning and reading the game. Busquets doesn't have the passing range of Pirlo and Alonso but is an excellent short distance passer.

Rodri is a unique profile too that's tough to categorise.

Both Rodri and Busquets play DM or number 6 in a 433 formation. You can call them anchor midfielders if you like. They're still DMs technically. Just have unique qualities and profiles.

Kante isn't a DM as some casuals believe. Kante is a midfielder general who pops up everywhere and usually plays alongside an anchor midfielder like Jorginho or in a double pivot. Kante is closer to a box to box midfielder (he isn't exactly that either) even though Kante is better at winning the ball and tackling than all these players. He wins these duels everywhere around the pitch which makes him one of the most unique players in the history of the sport.

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Agree with just about all of that. Others might not but I do. Keep making posts of this quality.