Hans-Dieter Flick
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khaled_a_d
Senior Member
Micah and Henry talked about this well
Rashford was at mistake here, no pressing.
However, Balde did most of the wrong, the passer was already free and in a position to read the play, and he wasn't in a danger position himself. In such case, you don't go and press him, you commit to the runner, not the passer.
Balde tries to press, the passer is patient and give to forbes, entire defense in shambles. If Balde stayed in place, Forbes won't have and advantage, and the defensive structure remains intact.
I would say this is something that needs to be fixed, you need to know when you commit to pressing the ball carrier, or to the runner.
serghei
Senior Member
This happens far too often and to more players to be an individual issue of reading a specific play. We just trigger pressing without any cover or without any decision making wether it can deliver a desired outcome or not. It's press either way whenever you can.
Balde keeps the fullback in check. And Garcia tracks the only player that is in his zone and nothing happens in the 1st goal. Instead Balde presses with no leverage, and Garcia plays offside line. Imo, this is by design.
The players know how to defend. We have largely the same backline from the season we conceded 20 goals in the league in 38 games. We can apply traditional defending methods in specific situations, but we don't want to. Because if the pressing up top is weak, it will happen constantly and we will transition to a more Xavi-like team. And we have a manager who would rather try to win games 5-4 than 1 or 2-0.
If you actually mix Xavi and Flick and find a common ground between them, that would be the best manager for us. Arteta is a bit like that. Player issue and squad issues would never go away in current circumstances, but at least we won't look clueless or funny on tactical level too.
Many people praise Garcia for making the offside possible on his part in the first goal. But him triggering it is a tactical issue in the first place. He barely plays the runner offside with all the leverage in the world. In those situations, if you who have the most control and barely play a direct opponent offside, it's common sense that your teammates who have other players to watch and duel with won't follow suit in time. They are dealing with more limitations, delayed reaction times and so on.
If you analyze what we do, it paints a very bad picture defensively and it's mostly tactical. Our setup is horrible. It's like how we defend off the ball is designed not to block the opponent, but to prep the offensive phase and get us a head start for a faster transition. But this is stupid. You first have to block the opponent and then you worry about transitioning from defense to offense.
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serghei
Senior Member
No doubt, benching Rashford for Raphinha brings a different level of pressing, and benching Tek for Garcia brings you more coverage for overhit passes behind our hugely high line. But this won't be enough.
Backline at halfway line is tremendously stupid idea. Gives any decent player so many options for a pass that he has to fail the pass in an absurd way by overhitting it by a mile so Garcia can come out in time. You don't have to be Xavi, Kroos, Modric to play these passes to put a teammate 1 vs 1. We made this Vanaken guy from Brugges look like an all time great playmaker lol.
And the ultra huge highline is tied to the extreme pressing we use. Let's say you want 40m compactness between striker and defender to have a short team and control space between lines. Then stop pressing all the time all the way up to the keeper as a block for as long as your legs hold up. Bring far more variation into it.
For example, you start the heavy pressing lower on the field to begin with. It's not an issue if opponent is left to sit on the ball at 80m away from our goal. Only when that pressing tries to pass into key zones, should the aggressive press become active-mode. And often times, when that happens, players being pressed will pass the ball worse, heavier etc. Then often the more advanced pressing gets triggered as a result.
That's how PSG do it. They oten let you pass for 30m until you get to more dangerous zones, where pressing gets far more intense and because the players are closer and the shape is more compact, it is more effective.
If that press works, they sometimes, NOT ALWAYS, move as a block forward. Especially when they see the opponent struggling. And it is also player oriented. Say someone from midfield is pressed by PSG, and passes the ball back to one of the defenders who in tactical preparation is seen as liability on the ball. Say Araujo. Then high press is on, triggered situationally by that fact. Say if the ball is passed back from midfield to a more gifted passer in the backline, then PSG will likely keep shape more.
Backline at halfway line is tremendously stupid idea. Gives any decent player so many options for a pass that he has to fail the pass in an absurd way by overhitting it by a mile so Garcia can come out in time. You don't have to be Xavi, Kroos, Modric to play these passes to put a teammate 1 vs 1. We made this Vanaken guy from Brugges look like an all time great playmaker lol.
And the ultra huge highline is tied to the extreme pressing we use. Let's say you want 40m compactness between striker and defender to have a short team and control space between lines. Then stop pressing all the time all the way up to the keeper as a block for as long as your legs hold up. Bring far more variation into it.
For example, you start the heavy pressing lower on the field to begin with. It's not an issue if opponent is left to sit on the ball at 80m away from our goal. Only when that pressing tries to pass into key zones, should the aggressive press become active-mode. And often times, when that happens, players being pressed will pass the ball worse, heavier etc. Then often the more advanced pressing gets triggered as a result.
That's how PSG do it. They oten let you pass for 30m until you get to more dangerous zones, where pressing gets far more intense and because the players are closer and the shape is more compact, it is more effective.
If that press works, they sometimes, NOT ALWAYS, move as a block forward. Especially when they see the opponent struggling. And it is also player oriented. Say someone from midfield is pressed by PSG, and passes the ball back to one of the defenders who in tactical preparation is seen as liability on the ball. Say Araujo. Then high press is on, triggered situationally by that fact. Say if the ball is passed back from midfield to a more gifted passer in the backline, then PSG will likely keep shape more.
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Loki
Well-known member
How often people need to repeat themselves, that it's not about the tactic but about the players executing it.
Strangly that's exactly what Bayern did successfully in Paris (until the red card obviously). What happened here, Paris doesn't know how to play against a defensive-line standing in the midfield? They have worse players than Brugge to send their forwards into 1vs1 situations? Why didn't they score againt Bayern's high-line?
It just proves, that this system can always be successful, as long as the requirements for it are met. Opponents adapting, gives away many options for 1vs1, it's all bullshit. It's either the requirements are met or not. Players are capable and believe in the system or not. I translated a good post on the last site on that topic
serghei
Senior Member
You watched Gnabry there? And Diaz? Do you see Rashford, Olmo, Lamine doing this? What are we talking about?
Tactics are also about figuring the best way to play with what you have. Not imagine some ideal play style in your head that can't be executed with the players you have and then giving speeches about what you need to do but don't.
Of course his tactics can work better on some ideal situation. We're not talking about Flick being a bum here.
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Loki
Well-known member
We're talking about you complaining since days, that the system is shit and I try to tell you, it's not the system, but the players not meeting the requirement currently. Your question here is correct to ask if we can do this pressing with Rashford. Lamine showed last season, he's capable to play in that system. But most of your posts to this topic are attacking the tactic in general and that's bullshit.
That's what you wrote:
And I just showed you Bayern dominated the current treble winner in their own stadium with this tactic. Not to mention we dominated all opponents last season playing exactly that with nearly the same players.
serghei
Senior Member
What you say is not logical and not how tactics work. Tactics are about figuring the best way to play with the players you have, vs the opponent you play against.
I see tactics - squad interdependent. You think tactics are good or bad on some idyllic plan and push the blames on the players. You want Yamal sold and replaced with a hard worker?
There's players and players for different plans. Yamal won't be able to press like that but can do things other players can't do in other setups. And it's a coaching matter to find a platform to use the players we have, not the players we don't.
Loki
Well-known member
Do you have dementia? Lamine played in that system last season where we've won the domestic treble and were 2 minutes away from the CL final. And he was arguably the best player in the world. You're arguing against facts here, which tells me you're talking out of your ass.
serghei
Senior Member
I just addressed this in a different post. 2 minutes away from a CL final means little. You just conceded 7 goals vs an Inter who weren't able to win anything in Italy. CL season from last year is not as impressive as you think.
We should have been favorites vs Benfica and last season Dortmund in CL knockouts. These two lost the title vs Sporting and Napoli. There were bad signs before Inter in that horrible Dortmund game in Germany where we were pure trash and could have shipped in more than 4 easily. We should have been favorites vs Inter and we just got beaten by a team that is inferior to us. I don't see the big feat last season in CL. If we would've been paired with Liverpool instead of Benfica, it's over for us in Last 16, not in semis.
Last season was a great start, not some mount Everest achievement as you imply. Something to build on and attack this season with improvements to the issues we had last year. Instead of improvements, and building on that, we are worse in every facet.
serghei
Senior Member
The only reason why Flick is not under direct sacking pressure is because the squad is limited and the financial situation is what we know it is. If we factor in that, as we should, then even if he has a terrible season and we win nothing and compete for little important, he will get another season still to try to fix things. Provided he doesn't implode and loses his shite like Xavi did. If nothing changes in the medium term, and we still have a defense that is the joke of Europe... we will move on from Flick, and we will remain with the positive impression of his one top season and that's it. No harm done in the bigger picture.
ZenI
Professor Balthazar
Indeed, it was Rashford and that's why I'm pissed of he doesn't anticipate and position himself and than press - light fucking jog from him after usually him loosing the ball. Our opponents only train one fucking thing, how to mess up our offside "trap"... sit back, wait until Rashy, Casado, Fermin, Olmo, Kounde or Balde lose the ball - keep on eye on the "last" Barca player while countering = profit.
x— But Brugge had some good moments, right? You said it would be tough, but in my opinion, today they had some really solid stretches.
Henri: “Yes, it depends on how you look at it. If you’re a Brugge fan – your team scored three goals against Barcelona, and they could have scored even more. Barca could have scored as well, but I have to point out that they constantly allow players to get away and face the goalkeeper one-on-one.”
— But remember, you showed clips after El Clásico last year where Mbappé chose the wrong moment to make a run? And if you look at Brugge today – they exploited that from the very start.
Henry: “But if you haven’t done your homework, haven’t figured out that Barcelona plays a high line, and don’t make late runs – remember how Borussia Dortmund did it against them last year. Late runs – and every time you can get to the goal. Why put yourself in a situation where you create problems for yourself? No disrespect to Brugge or other teams – but you have to defend not only the ball, but your own goal.
You can’t just defend the ball when there’s no pressure on it, letting players run left and right – and in the end, they keep creating chances. That’s not what you need. You have to eliminate mistakes, not create them yourself.”
Henry: “We’ve seen this many times. It seems like it was last year, in the match against Bayern.
Remember we talked about it a few days ago, we showed Kane’s goal, where he broke the offside line while staying on it the whole time, because they knew they were playing against a high line.
Even though they [Barca] won 4-1, I think I said last year that this line is suspicious. They need to fix this because in Europe, they won’t win like that.”
“We all know what happened: the match against Benfica, the match against Inter, the number of goals conceded, the number of shots conceded, the number of one-on-ones the goalkeeper has to save or concede.
And a year later, the situation is the same.”
“This is just not normal. There won’t be that many wins, especially in European competitions.”
Henri: “Yes, it depends on how you look at it. If you’re a Brugge fan – your team scored three goals against Barcelona, and they could have scored even more. Barca could have scored as well, but I have to point out that they constantly allow players to get away and face the goalkeeper one-on-one.”
— But remember, you showed clips after El Clásico last year where Mbappé chose the wrong moment to make a run? And if you look at Brugge today – they exploited that from the very start.
Henry: “But if you haven’t done your homework, haven’t figured out that Barcelona plays a high line, and don’t make late runs – remember how Borussia Dortmund did it against them last year. Late runs – and every time you can get to the goal. Why put yourself in a situation where you create problems for yourself? No disrespect to Brugge or other teams – but you have to defend not only the ball, but your own goal.
You can’t just defend the ball when there’s no pressure on it, letting players run left and right – and in the end, they keep creating chances. That’s not what you need. You have to eliminate mistakes, not create them yourself.”
Henry: “We’ve seen this many times. It seems like it was last year, in the match against Bayern.
Remember we talked about it a few days ago, we showed Kane’s goal, where he broke the offside line while staying on it the whole time, because they knew they were playing against a high line.
Even though they [Barca] won 4-1, I think I said last year that this line is suspicious. They need to fix this because in Europe, they won’t win like that.”
“We all know what happened: the match against Benfica, the match against Inter, the number of goals conceded, the number of shots conceded, the number of one-on-ones the goalkeeper has to save or concede.
And a year later, the situation is the same.”
“This is just not normal. There won’t be that many wins, especially in European competitions.”
You’re reasoning as if our terrible defense is a phenomenon of this season. Last season, we ran our asses off, but opponents were still creating tons of chances at our goal.
Let me remind you – Inter scored 8!!!! goals. Inter! Borussia scored 4 and outperformed us in xG. Benfica also created a lot of chances at our goal.
Let me remind you – Inter scored 8!!!! goals. Inter! Borussia scored 4 and outperformed us in xG. Benfica also created a lot of chances at our goal.
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