Nelson Semedo

[JamDav1982]

This is why I said Umtiti readjusts. If you look at the sign I made, Umtiti and Pique are very well placed to deal with the action. Umtiti would be in a good position to both double team Pique if Vinicius tries a dribble, and block a cutback pass to Carvajal.

You want Umtiti to 'double team' and come across to back up Pique?

Jesus it gets worse.

You act like it is just a free for all and nearest man to ball moves to it and nearest man to him has to come and back them up. No top team defends like that.

Umtiti was covering the striker there and would not leave him to back up Pique.

In your scenario Pique does not have time to get there and would leave Carvjal on own on edge of area where Kroos can find him and he is in.

That would be more horrific defending.

The defence had their shape. Semedo broke it and it was a scramble from there.

 

[serghei]

You want Umtiti to 'double team' and come across to back up Pique?

Jesus it gets worse.

You act like it is just a free for all and nearest man to ball moves to it and nearest man to him has to come and back them up. No top team defends like that.

Umtiti was covering the striker there and would not leave him to back up Pique.

In your scenario Pique does not have time to get there and would leave Carvjal on own on edge of area where Kroos can find him and he is in.

That would be more horrific defending.

The back 4 is a unit. It's obvious that when Pique moves more towards the right, Umtiti readjusts, and this movement is sometimes even translated to Alba. We're talking about different things. I am talking about ball oriented zonal defense, you are talking about space oriented zonal defense, which is a thing from the 90s rarely used today. Today most teams make serious shape alteration to block the space around the ball.

 

[El Gato]

Lmao asking Umtiti to cover 2 players.

Tell you what, why don't we analyse a different move, a very similar one.

@serghei @Villarrubi - who made the mistake here

 

[JamDav1982]

The back 4 is a unit. It's obvious that when Pique moves more towards the ball, Umtiti readjusts, and this movement is sometimes even translated to Alba.

Pique was covering a run that FDJ had not tracker and Semedo had walked out of position a couple of seconds before.

The defence did not have the time to pass men on and shuffle across and even had they done were completely exposed anyway.

The error had already been made by defence shape going.

 

[serghei]

That's totally different lol. In that situation there's a 2 vs 3 in the wing in favor of AM. The player with the ball only has 1 player to pass to.

In that situation the RB shouln't have went that wide. He leaves on the inside pass, and blocks the outside pass. That's a mistake from the fullback. You have Benzema who doesn't overload that flank, it's stupid to even compare.

Pique was covering a run that FDJ had not tracker and Semedo had walked out of position a couple of seconds before.

The defence did not have the time to pass men on and shuffle across and even had they done were completely exposed anyway.

The error had already been made by defence shape going.

Pique is not tracking anything. He is sleeping. Arthur is blocking the central pass. The action is obviously only happening on the right.

 

[El Gato]

That's totally different lol. In that situation there's a 2 vs 3 in the wing. The player with the ball only has 1 player to pass to.

Not what I asked. I asked who you think made the mistake.

This vehement defense of Benzema from being called 'not dangerous' is amusing tho. Almost as if someone blamed him for something

 

[JamDav1982]

There is around one second of Semedo being in decent enough position if he stops following Benzema and being out of position when pass made by Kroos.

You think in that one second Pique should shift across, Umtiti should shift across and Alba should move in. That is impossible.

You are acting like it is the defence shuffling across when team passing it from side to side it is nothing like that.

It is the shape of defence being thrown into chaos very quickly as Semedo follows Benzema.

 

[serghei]

Not what I asked. I asked who you think made the mistake.

This vehement defense of Benzema from being called 'not dangerous' is amusing tho. Almost as if someone blamed him for something

OK, asked and answered in that scenario. It was a favorable situation for Atletico that was poorly handled by allowing the only good pass to happen.

 

[serghei]

You think in that one second Pique should shift across, Umtiti should shift across and Alba should move in. That is impossible.

No, top teams do this all the time nowadays, especially those who don't have top defenders. It's a basic defensive transition move to block an overload in a flank.

Imo, when a player like Benzema is moving so much far off to create superiority, you have to mount a response. That response means Pique has to close down near Semedo.

This happened to result in a direct pass with a great play by Kroos, but normally, Benzema creates the play if you don't block him there. Done this a lot of times. If Benzema is not blocked, Kroos passes to Benzema and then Benzema either plays Vinicius on the run or decides to play more centrally, with Carvajal, who is not blocked by Arthur anymore. There are several possibilities.

 

[JamDav1982]

No, top teams do this all the time nowadays, especially those who don't have top defenders. It's a basic defensive transition move to block an overload in a flank.

Imo, when a player like Benzema is moving so much away to create superiority, you have to mount a response. That response means Pique has to close down near Semedo.

No they dont.

They focus on keeping shape and not getting dragged out to leave space as happened when Semedo followed Benzema,

Again you say Pique had to close down... he doesnt have to be closer to Semedo there for any reason until that pass in behind is on and that takes around second for Semedo to leave that run on and Pique to cover so virtually impossible anyway.

By far and away the lesser threat is to keep shape and give Benzema a bit more time to get on ball there.

No top team will aim to defend the way Semedo did there and if it happens they are leaving themselves open.

Teams dont defend 'overloads on flanks' through their ful backs follwing players out of defence and asking their CBs to cover the space left and front up to the wide players. No team whatsoever wants to defend like that.

 

[El Gato]

OK, asked and answered in that scenario. It was a favorable situation for Atletico that was poorly handled by allowing the only good pass to happen.

See, the issue is you see the double-team by Vrsaljko and Llorente on Vinicius as good and Lemar coming out too wide as the last man on the flank as bad. Which is a fair assessment, because Lemar didn't need to take away the pass to Mendy's feet, Mendy's barely going to do much once he receives it other than run and cross. And yet you want Benzema to be treated as the same danger by closing him down and taking the options away as if he's anywhere near the same level of danger as Vini as he turns, but you do not see how he would have ZERO options if he had turned and met with Semedo who hadn't followed him. And you also do not see how your proposed vision of the CB shift would have caused Fede to get on Umtiti's weak side exactly like Benzema did against Atletico.

The root of your argument is that you think Benzema receiving the ball where he would have is dangerous and needs to be mitigated. Which is flat out dumb. What's he going to do at that spot? Send Vinicius in on the wing? Probably. But Semedo has it covered if he stays + Braithwaite would come to help. Drive and shoot? He never does it, because a) he's too slow and everyone catches up and b) because he prefers to walk into the goal. Pass to Carvajal who is running onto weak foot? Bad play and he'd probably not do it. You can find tonnes of video footage showing you how passive Benzema plays on the left wing once he drops to receive the ball.

Your judgement is bizarre. It's odd how wrong you judge this situation.

 

[serghei]

No they dont.

They focus on keeping shape and not getting dragged out to leave space as happened when Semedo followed Benzema,

Again you say Pique had to close down... he doesnt have to be closer to Semedo there for any reason until that pass in behind is on and that takes around second for Semedo to leave that run on and Pique to cover so virtually impossible anyway.

By far and away the lesser threat is to keep shape and give Benzema a bit more time to get on ball there.

No top team will aim to defend the way Semedo did there and if it happens they are leaving themselves open.

Teams dont defend 'overloads on flanks' through their ful backs follwing players out of defence and asking their CBs to cover the space left and front up to the wide players. No team whatsoever wants to defend like that.

And as I said, shape is dependent on the position on the ball and the opponent's actions. You let the opponent create superiority at will, and you will have all sorts of problems. Main course of action is to stop the progression of an attack near the ball, in close spaces, at the expense of leaving more space in farther areas. The farther an area is the harder it is to be accessed by a player on the ball quickly.

Your strategy is basically reducing your defense to last ditch tackles after the defense is already penetrated. Because you stick to positions without looking at the ball.

The root of your argument is that you think Benzema receiving the ball where he would have is dangerous and needs to be mitigated. Which is flat out dumb. What's he going to do at that spot? Send Vinicius in on the wing? Probably. But Semedo has it covered if he stays + Braithwaite would come to help. Drive and shoot? He never does it, because a) he's too slow and everyone catches up and b) because he prefers to walk into the goal. Pass to Carvajal who is running onto weak foot? Bad play and he'd probably not do it. You can find tonnes of video footage showing you how passive Benzema plays on the left wing once he drops to receive the ball.

Your judgement is bizarre. It's odd how wrong you judge this situation.

You are basing a defensive strategy on things like Benzema not being very good, or not being this or that. It doesn't work that way. The view is systemic. You don't let a pass on that can hurt you in a variety of ways because Benzema is this or that.

Good thing we quadruple marked Carvajal and that player, whoever that filler player is in the box (who's actually the real bait here lol keeping our CBs away from the action), and allowed Benzema, Kross and Vinicius, probably 3 of Madrid's most dangerous players create havoc on that side.

 

[JamDav1982]

And as I said, shape is dependent on the position on the ball and the opponent's actions. You let the opponent create superiority at will, and you will have all sorts of problems. Main course of action is to stop the progression of an attack near the ball, in close spaces, at the expense of leaving more space in farther areas. The farther an area is the harder it is to be accessed by a player on the ball quickly.

Your strategy is basically reducing your defense to last ditch tackles after the defense is already penetrated. Because you stick to positions without looking at the ball.

Benzema receiving ball there withe Barca defence in shape is less of a 'superior' option than Semedo breaking the defensive shape and giving next to no time for others to reacts to it.

No team in the world tries to defend 'overloads on the flanks' by defenders following the oppostion attack and leaving gaps for others to cover.

Every top team in that situation opts to keep shape and make opposition work to break them down not offer up gaps for them to play through.

Teams try to set traps to get situations like that one in Real game as they want defenders drawn out and leaving gaps.

The absolute last thing Barca want is the wide players running at the CBs it is about the worst situation possible and there is zero chance Pique could have avoided that happening there.

It is absolutely basic defending and defensive approach.

 

[El Gato]

You are basing a defensive strategy on things like Benzema not being very good, or not being this or that. It doesn't work that way. The view is systemic. You don't let a pass on that can hurt you in a variety of ways because Benzema is this or that. Good thing we quadruple marked Carvajal and that player whoever that filler player is in the box (who's actually the real bait here lol), and allowed Benzema, Kross and Vinicius, probably 3 of Madrid's most dangerous players create havoc on that side.

Well you have to base it on personal judgements on what a given player is going to do. You don't close down every player that gets within 10m of the penalty box. That is nuts. You keep the shape. And most teams who watch Benzema know it and let him have his sterile possession on the LW, flicks and 1-2s. You don't close down Carvajal in that position, do you? You take away his options,because you know he's a shit shooter and prefers to pass. Benzema in that particular spot would do nothing, but look for a pass and he would only have 2 passes on. Both covered, by either Semedo+Braithwaite or by FDJ assuming he'd have moved.

Benzema would create zero havoc. He always goes there. Nothing comes of it. You should watch him more. I can give you tonnes of examples. Here:

1:42
2:50
2:58
3:20 (probably the best example where you see EXACTLY what he does as he receives the ball in that position and why most defenders stand-off him)
3:26, very similar decision making
3:36
3:44

Where is all that havoc?

In fact the only time Benzema has to be closed down at all costs (other than open moments in the middle) is when he's developing moves on the counter around the halfway line. It's where he has always been the most effective (2:54 for example). You never let him make the entry pass there. But when he comes down to receive a pass? Let him have it all day long. It's like standing-off Shaq on a 3-point line when he's on the left side. All you gotta do is not let him pass.

 

[JamDav1982]

Not even just defending Benzema... teams worked out years ago the best approach to try and limit Messi at false nine was to keep shape and NOT be drawn out of position.

Top teams thrive in the chaos of defences offering up gaps like that.

Either man mark or keep shape. Dont play with a shape that gets pulled apart by opposition off the ball.