JamDav1982
Senior Member
False.
Courtois made cracking saves v Liverpool and hence why MOTM and record number of saves.
Poor defences can get to finals... if GK and forwards can bale them out.
Your speaking nonsense.
La Liga Round 2: Barca - Cadiz 2-0
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False.
Courtois made cracking saves v Liverpool and hence why MOTM and record number of saves.
Poor defences can get to finals... if GK and forwards can bale them out.
Your speaking nonsense.
serghei
Senior Member
So? Curtois was exceptional and the defense in front of him was good. When the defense is shit, you lose 4-0 like this year. Courtois or no Courtois.
An elite keeper can only save a good defense. Not a shit one. Your arguments don't make sense.
JamDav1982
Senior Member
No the defence on front of him was poor and defended poorly every tie and gave away huge amount of chances.
Chelsea conceded less in 11/12 and were far from a good defence.. teams missed chances and keeper stood up at right times etc.
Poor defences can get carried in same way a poor attack can if defence is strong enough. While teams can also just miss those chances the poor defending gives them.
Real conceded 5 goals last year as well as this v City. Poor point.
Chelsea in 2012 had better defence in CL than Real in 2022 and they were far from elite also.
serghei
Senior Member
The other defenses they played against, Chelsea, City, PSG were poorer. So, even if Madrid's defense wasn't great when compared to top defensive sides in the past, it was still better than that of the other current teams. Since that is the point, to defend better than the opposition, I'd say they did a good job.
Simple.
JamDav1982
Senior Member
No... Real conceded more chances in every game than those opposition.
The difference was the attacking players and the GK.
Simple.
By your logic the team that wins CL is best in every dept every time.
Di Mattoes Chelsea were better than Reals in comparison defensively and they were far from elite also.
Awful logic as per usual.
Teams can win despite areas of their team being poor.. not a new concept and happened plenty in past.
JamDav1982
Senior Member
It is simply true. Over every tie they conceded more chances is what meant rather than 'games''
Not one defender in UEFA team of year for winners is unusual... there is a reason why.
Guess what... City were shit defensively also.. can both be poor defensively.. Real worse but attacking players more clinical and GK counts also.
Real were poor defensively and won it.
Teams can have a top back four playing well and lose... these things can happen.
Chelsea had better defence in CL 2012 and far from elite.
Not one defender in UEFA team of year for winners is unusual... there is a reason why.
Guess what... City were shit defensively also.. can both be poor defensively.. Real worse but attacking players more clinical and GK counts also.
Real were poor defensively and won it.
Teams can have a top back four playing well and lose... these things can happen.
Chelsea had better defence in CL 2012 and far from elite.
serghei
Senior Member
Not possible, no matter how hard you try. To win a CL every compartment of the team has to at least be good. It's simple logic. Sure, you can make an argument their defense was not elite. No doubt, it wasn't. That's different.
Comparisons with Chelsea in 2012 are absurd. But even in that case, members of that Chelsea side were elite (Cech, Drogba, Lampard) and many were very good.
Madrid vs City xG in the semifinal tie was something like 4.68 vs 3.87 for City. Very close. Courtois no doubt made a difference, but it was a close semifinal vs the best team in the world at the time. To say Madrid's defense wasn't at least good is a joke.
JamDav1982
Senior Member
Nope it is very much possible no matter how hard you try.
They defence was poor and gave up a ton of chances every tie.. bailed out by GK and attack.
Can happen.. just as can lose with a good defence if other team more clinical and yours fails to take chances.
City didnt defend well in final this year for example.. but won with a clean sheet.
As said Chelsea did not have an elite defence in 2012 and were better defensively than Real.
Not one Real defender in CL team of season for good reason.
As said.. city defended poorly but Real had more clinical attackers and better GK.
Funny how defence is 'poor' this season v Real when concede 5 v City yet conceded same last year and Courtois made more saves but they were 'good' then.
Conceded 5 v City this year and last... and Courtois as far as remember made more saves the year before and attack was more clinical.. thats the difference.
Serghei thinks it's the system that made Gundogan look good.
Ajno said the same about Rodri.
Seems they both believe pep adds a premium to his players, what we all know is true.
But I disagree with both re those players.
Who
1. were very good at previous clubs
2. are very good for the national teams.
3. just class players.
Outside fans said the same thing about Xavi and iniesta.
Truly World class players shine in any system, a perfected one is simply icing on top.
Lesser players require certain formations and setup to get the best out of them, which is why Xavi is better than pirlo for example.
As of now taking age out of it because I still think he has 1.5 season left in the tank, gundogan is easily the best midfielder at the club.
Ajno said the same about Rodri.
Seems they both believe pep adds a premium to his players, what we all know is true.
But I disagree with both re those players.
Who
1. were very good at previous clubs
2. are very good for the national teams.
3. just class players.
Outside fans said the same thing about Xavi and iniesta.
Truly World class players shine in any system, a perfected one is simply icing on top.
Lesser players require certain formations and setup to get the best out of them, which is why Xavi is better than pirlo for example.
As of now taking age out of it because I still think he has 1.5 season left in the tank, gundogan is easily the best midfielder at the club.
JamDav1982
Senior Member
Until he proves he is best midfielder at Barca no he isnt.
Fair changed tune from Pedri being the best.
Usual.
But regardless Gundo or Pedri have to prove better than FDJ for Barca.
Not yet but lets see.
FDJ was best mid v Getafe and MOTM in CB/DM last game v Cadiz.
Fair changed tune from Pedri being the best.
Usual.
But regardless Gundo or Pedri have to prove better than FDJ for Barca.
Not yet but lets see.
FDJ was best mid v Getafe and MOTM in CB/DM last game v Cadiz.
serghei
Senior Member
Then in this case, there's nothing stopping Gundogan from showing his quality here in CL. It is gonna be much harder than at City for obvious reasons, but if he has so much quality as believed, he'll rise up to the challenge this season.
If he does, chapeau bas, he's better than I believe him to be.
My reservation with him is that at Barcelona there's no player like Haaland up front, and no midfielder like De Bruyne next to him, no Grealish on the left, no Pep on the bench... and so on.
JamDav1982
Senior Member
Well no thats not how it works.
All players need a system to get the best out of them and the team but that is the coaches job.
If Xavi provides a system that suits Gundogan and Gundogan fails thats on the player.
serghei
Senior Member
Yes, we know, Xavi is to blame for everything.
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