21 - Frenkie de Jong

Arizona Scott

New member
Not so sure about that at all. Pirlo was the more talented player and trophy wise it is close with Pirlo winning the World Cup while being one of the best players for Italy in the process. I much rather have Pirlo's trophy cabinet than Modric's. Many more league titles as well. Won 2 CL's and reached as many CL finals as Modric has. Modric only has CL performances over Pirlo due to playing for a better team than Pirlo has ever played for as good as Carlo's Milan team were. Pirlo moved to Juve when he was just 1 year younger than Modric is currently as well. Doubt that Modric will ever perform as well as Pirlo did in the CL as a 36 year old playing for an inferior team in Juve. Being a CL-final loss away from winning a treble in his final season in Europe moreover.

Pirlo was the better individual player and the much more spectacular player. Different player types though.

I for once rate the likes of Xavi and Pirlo significantly higher than Modric who I would put at least a level below.

Xavi > Modric or Pirlo, pretty much those twos best qualities in 1 player. Modric and Pirlo are a little different, but two of the best central mids of their era. Pirlo really was best player outside of Buffoon for that Italy WC winner, later (Juve) he became more limited and needed a dedicated destroyer next to him.

I don't mean a "poor mans" Xavi as an insult, there are only a handful of mids I would even mention in the same sentence. I don't think it is disrespectful to put Modric (or Pirlo) in a category below Xavi (+Zidane, Iniesta, Matthaus, didn't watch footy all that much before the German and even for him I barely trust my judgment in including him here).


Exactly
With Arthur and Frankie in front of him Busqs could play another 5 years or so

I don't know about 5 but I think he can be much more effective, and for longer, with guys off the ball who are rangier. Looking forward to this combo--think they could compliment well, and IMO they key to midfield is balance in collective attributes.
 

Magyarkhan

New member
Frenkie will do better when the people around him are more mobile. He sees a lot of chances but needs people who are dynamic running into holes, if you start a run Frenkie will notice it and use it
 

BBZ8800

Senior Member
That's bad, because we have no one making runs. Good luck Frenkie..

I see that in the last few Months, this phrase became a new scapegoat for everything.
Now everything sucks because we are not moving enough.
While that is true, my point is that there are probably 10 different aspects and different problems in our team like:
Lack of off the ball movement, slow players, old players, unmotivated old players, old Messi, old and tired central Cf (and if we sub him with someone else, maybe we'll get more movement, but we'll score even less goals since only Dembele, Messi and Suarez are able to score currently), no one able to head the ball into a net once when big teams will park the buses (unlike weaker teams like Getafe, who can't do that).
I won't even mention questionable defending in these new lineups.

Ayway, last season, we were reading similar posts like:
Our game sucks because we don't have a controller.
And once when we'll get a controller, everything will be awesome.

But, we have Arthur now, and while he has improved our game in some aspects, can you guys seriously say that our overal gameplay in 2019 in significantly better than in 2017/17 BEFORE Arthur?
I can't.
I am not saying though (anymore) that Arthur is not good, my point is that majority of you expected that EVERYTHING will magically improve once when we'll get a good, old controller, and yet, our team is more or less the same as in 2017/18, in fact, I would dare to say that we play even way worse, uglier and slower than in the last season.
Not because of Arthur, though.
But my point is: I guess that majority of you expected a 50% or 100% improvement in our game once when we'll get a controller, and yet our improvement with a controller is probably 0%, 5% or 10% (don't jump on these estimated numbers, I hope that you get what I am trying to say).

Anyway, I am trying to say that I guess that the same might happen with these new flavor of the might alibi/magical solution=we need players with more movement, with running into space and who are fast.

For the beginning, how on Earth will we achieve that?
Let's check our team in 2019/2020 season:
Busi, majority still rate him highly and Rakitic is the main scapegoat. Even though Busi is only slightly less horrible than Raki. So imo, if Raki has to go, Busi should follow him extremely soon. I know, I know, Busi has "good passes/vision and everything", but then, if you want a younger, more mobile and faster team, you can't build that team around the drained, unmotivated, old, slow turtle Busi.
So, Busi will be here as a starter in the next season surely.
Then, we have Arthur, who, even though he moves a lot OFF THE BALL, he is not actually fast and is not making any forward runs. He is moving off the ball somewhere in between pivot and RCM position.
So, Frenkie won't have too much help from Busi's and Arthur's forward movement and runs.
Also, Busi's and Arthur's natural instincts are to slow down the game, keep possession and wait until our team gets into a 433 shape, so that we can Tiki-Taka them from that position.
Busi can't relearn new tricks aged 30+, and Arthur will need also need to slightly change his natural (Xavi's controlling) instincts if you want a faster, more direct game and balls going faster to wings and attackers.
So, that's already 2 players on whom Frenkie won't be able to count.
Let's see a forward line.
Granny and even more older, slower and lazier Messi? Good luck with that.
Suarez? No need to comment at all.
So, basically, out of 6 players in midfield-forward line, Frenkie will be able to play forward passes only for Dembele and somewhat to Messi.

Now, let's go back to my original point: do you guys think that faster players will magically solve our problems?
And even worse, there is even no way to actually put some faster players on a field.
Our subs are turtle slow Coutinho and quite slowish winger Malcom.
So, if you want faster players, you'll need to get rid of Busi (which is impossible) and you'll need to bench Suarez.
And then, with benching Suarez, you'll get more off the ball movement, but there is a chance that we'll lose 30 goals per season, a strong player who is dragging 2 defenders in the box all the time, and that our game with any forward instead of Suarez will actually be way, way worse.
Remember that every single big winner of a CL and World cups after Pep's Barca had a strong central forward in 433 (Benzema, Suarez, Giroud, Mandzukic, Kane etc).
The only teams who play without a classic 9, are Pep's Barca from 7-10 years ago, and Pep's City.
And we are yet to see how Pep's City is actually capable of winning a CL with Pep's style.

All in all, I see a lot of talk about off the ball movement and faster players, and yet it seems that our only 2 options for the next season are:
1. Busi, Arthur, Frenkie - Dembele, Suarez, Messi=which is more or less the same or only slightly better than today in terms of runs and movement. Whom will Frenkie and Arthur pass in this lineup?
2. the other option is quite dangerous: Busi, Arthur, Frenkie - Dembele, Messi, Malcom/insert a different winger, with a 33 years old Messi as a false 9 dropping deep and walking around the pitch, where we'll get forward runs from wingers, we'll lose a man in the box and an option to cross or play a long ball from time to time. Plus, defenders who don't need to man mark Suarez will now man mark Messi at the edge of the box (2-3-4 of them), and since youngsters Dembele, Malcom, Arthur and Frenkie will pas every single ball to Messi at the edge of the box, our game will possibly be even more 33-years-old Messi dependant and quite easy to neutralize by any physically tougher CL team.

In general, the idea of a faster team is good.
But it will work ONLY when Busi, Messi, Suarez will retire/get sold.

There is absolutely no way to play faster with these 3 getting older and slower each season.

Frenkie will do better when the people around him are more mobile. He sees a lot of chances but needs people who are dynamic running into holes, if you start a run Frenkie will notice it and use it

So, guys, prepare for:
The same team, EV and Busi, Arthur, Frenkie - Dembele, Suarez, Messi.
 
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Leo_Messi

New member
Xavi > Modric or Pirlo, pretty much those twos best qualities in 1 player. Modric and Pirlo are a little different, but two of the best central mids of their era. Pirlo really was best player outside of Buffoon for that Italy WC winner, later (Juve) he became more limited and needed a dedicated destroyer next to him.

I don't mean a "poor mans" Xavi as an insult, there are only a handful of mids I would even mention in the same sentence. I don't think it is disrespectful to put Modric (or Pirlo) in a category below Xavi (+Zidane, Iniesta, Matthaus, didn't watch footy all that much before the German and even for him I barely trust my judgment in including him here).




I don't know about 5 but I think he can be much more effective, and for longer, with guys off the ball who are rangier. Looking forward to this combo--think they could compliment well, and IMO they key to midfield is balance in collective attributes.

Xavi is definitely a tier above Pirlo and every other contemporary CM. He defined an entire era and was the brain behind the unprecedented success of not only his club team but his national team as well. That is an extremely rare accomplishment. His consistency alone is legendary.

I would rate Xavi at the very top, top tier, Pirlo a tier below and Modric a tier below Pirlo. No disrespect to Modric who should never have won the Ballon d'Or (a joke election) but is/was one of the better midfielders of his era, but Xavi and Pirlo were on another level. Not even talking about individual talent here where Pirlo probably tops it. The passes that he made on a consistent basis, the free kicks, the long-range shots etc. He was a joy to watch. More entertaining to watch than both Xaxi let alone Modric IMO.

Pirlo was also always much more highly rated than both of them. As a 16 year old he was playing with a legend of the game like Baggio and Pep as well at Brescia. You should take a look what those 2 legends where saying about a 16 year old Pirlo back then.

Not to mention that Pirlo was much more charismatic (Xavi as well) than the mute and not particularly good looking (won't insult him if I say this) Modric.

[youtube]eUg9Sx28MlA[/youtube]

[youtube]Vfxs8v67nbY[/youtube]

[youtube]kjP7GCz8eig[/youtube]

Always wanted to see Pirlo playing for us. Pep wanted him back in 2011 as well (could have come for free) but we unfortunately opted for the snail Cesc. Rest is history.
 
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Jombi

New member
I see that in the last few Months, this phrase became a new scapegoat for everything.
Now everything sucks because we are not moving enough.
While that is true, my point is that there are probably 10 different aspects and different problems in our team like:
Lack of off the ball movement, slow players, old players, unmotivated old players, old Messi, old and tired central Cf (and if we sub him with someone else, maybe we'll get more movement, but we'll score even less goals since only Dembele, Messi and Suarez are able to score currently), no one able to head the ball into a net once when big teams will park the buses (unlike weaker teams like Getafe, who can't do that).
I won't even mention questionable defending in these new lineups.

Ayway, last season, we were reading similar posts like:
Our game sucks because we don't have a controller.
And once when we'll get a controller, everything will be awesome.

I am not saying though (anymore) that Arthur is not good, my point is that majority of you expected that EVERYTHING will magically improve

Please show some proof that the majority of people here believe in this magic and that everything will be awesome and that people dont think other factors like our ageing core is a problem. You are one of the main advocates here for us to buy old players who naturally will have to be kept well past their use-by date. Now you're arguing that its the other people on the forum who dont think our ageing squad is a problem. If you constantly have to lie and exaggerate to prove some point, you are just arguing for the sake of arguing.
 
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BBZ8800

Senior Member
Please show some proof that the majority of people here believe in this magic and that everything will be awesome and that people dont think other factors like our ageing core is a problem. You are one of the main advocates here for us to buy old players who naturally will have to be kept well past their use-by date. Now you're arguing that its the other people on the forum who dont think our ageing squad is a problem. If you constantly have to lie and exaggerate to prove some point, you are just arguing for the sake of arguing.

Did you offer ANYTHING in this post but arguing for the sake of arguing?
 

Arizona Scott

New member
I asked you to prove your claims. You cant of course, thats why you constantly have to lie and exaggerate in order to toot your own horn.

Proof, when posters go to the trouble to provide the closest thing we get to proof (in sports, opinion and player performance) it is flippantly disregarded.


Please show some proof that the majority of people here believe in this magic and that everything will be awesome and that people dont think other factors like our ageing core is a problem..

So you expect him (or her) to do a poll, or trace every poster to see if the used words very close to those above.

What if the poster said "my sense is large portion of posters, maybe a majority, share a view that if we only removed Rakitic, Suarez, Bob and Pique as starters--largely using other players at the club, and changed coaches from EV to another professional coach, Barca would perform vastly superior in the champions league elimination round" I would say I think this is true (this is a majority view or if not a large and loud sizable minority, and I would also contend it is an over simplistic and biased narrative that places too much blame on certain players and not enough credit to others regarding their collective contributions and collective weaknesses.

But I would have a hard time "proving" any of this--well at least the opinions of fans pieces, an just state it from what I observe. I could collect some evidence, analyze and code posters responses, do surveys, etc--but I'd much rather use my time to watch players and game and also look at performance statistics (more evidence for this type of proof) vs analysis of a fan boards opinions. Could be just me I reken.
 
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Ajax

New member
Hope you guys enjoyed ajax. Think we played great. As good as we can basically.

Frenkie was Ok. Most impressive was the fact he kept it sober. As instructed by Ten Hag. He must have felt pressure to make a mark as he knew this was the first time most barca fans would watch him. He is not very good lately but lets be honest. He is 21y, made an 86m move to barca. I walk aroumd with my head in the clouds for a week when i get an attaboy and 100e raise from my manager. He just signed a deal beyond his dreams
 

Vilarrubi

New member
Hope you guys enjoyed ajax. Think we played great. As good as we can basically.

Frenkie was Ok. Most impressive was the fact he kept it sober. As instructed by Ten Hag. He must have felt pressure to make a mark as he knew this was the first time most barca fans would watch him. He is not very good lately but lets be honest. He is 21y, made an 86m move to barca. I walk aroumd with my head in the clouds for a week when i get an attaboy and 100e raise from my manager. He just signed a deal beyond his dreams

I thought he was class first half, didn’t watch the 2nd. But Ajax as a team in the first half were immense, that pressing was top quality, really had Madrid penned in for a while.
 

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