Quique Setien

[serghei]

It's a total catastrophe right now. This club needs new management with the right expertise, vision and a proper sporting model to take us forward. Barto and his executives might probably be good at finances, investments, marketing etc but on the sporting side, they leave alot to be desired.

Exactly. Signing new players but leaving the same management at the top will change nothing. The new players will start to get contaminated by the rot in the club. This whole club and whole team were managed in such a way as to appease the veterans.

 

[Gaudi]

I'm just not convinced it's their age or laziness to blame (could be of course), but rather flawed understanding of their own style. That's why I was against Xavi as well. Didn't he once complain during LE tenure that we lost possession, that we need to get back to the roots?
I'm sick of possession being our style or game plan, I want possession to be RESULT of attacking and dominant display but not only for sake of having the ball and passing it harmlessly around.

 

[Raketa10]

I'm just not convinced it's their age or laziness to blame (could be of course), but rather flawed understanding of their own style. That's why I was against Xavi as well. Didn't he once complain during LE tenure that we lost possession, that we need to get back to the roots?
I'm sick of possession being our style or game plan, I want possession to be RESULT of attacking and dominant display but not only for sake of having the ball and passing it harmlessly around.

100% true. This obsession with possession style of football is just dumb. Even Pep evolved and we are still trying to copy that 2010 type of football with our mediocre squad. How can anyone claim that our current way of playing is interesting or exciting to watch?! Having possession for the sake of possession is pointless as it gets, not to mention it's easy to defend. Football is exciting when you crate a loot of chances and score numerous of goals and for that you have to be active with and without the ball. There is nothing exciting in our current way of playing and IMHO Setien is not the one to blame for that. I agree that he is not the right man for the job but to be fair no coach in the world could do a better job with our current team.

Many of us tend to get angry at our manager when we play like shit but the truth is there is no manager in the world who would order his team to be static or not to create space or avoid pressing. To be fair I am almost certain both Valverde and Enrique were mad at our players for the lack of effort in many games. Try to remember how Enrique shouted at some players in that game against Juve in Turin which we lost 3-0. It was clear as a day our players weren't following his instructions. So it's either because of the lack of effort or they just can't deliver anymore on the highest level but the truth is this squad is done.

We need 4 or 5 new players ASAP and even than we won't be able to recreate 2010 way of playing. The truth is we shouldn't even try to do that, we should just try to evolve, that's what LE did in his firs season here. Unfortunately our squad was already spent and half dead season after (and we were banned by UEFA) so he couldn't repeat that in 2015/16 season. Five years have passed since and Pique, Busi, Raki, Suarez and co. are still here. Our new expensive signings were horrible as it gets so what the fuck do we all expect?!

Setien is probably not the right man for the job but I cant see any point of firing him after 6 months because this board won't do anything different this summer. When the new board arrives we can than talk about the long term plan and new manager. Until than we need to accept the fact we are not CL contenders anymore. We can only win it by a huge amount of luck, like Chelsea did in 2011 and that's it.

Regarding Xavi, to be fair no one knows if he will succeed or not. The only thing I hope is that he realizes the copy is always worse than the original. If he want's to succeed in his coaching career he needs to create his own style. Constant attempts to copy Pep's Barca are also the reason why we are in this state right now.

 

[Gaudi]

But I see FDJ, Umtiti, Lenglet, Arthur, Dembele, Vidal, Semedo, Griez..all new faces, they surely can't be influenced with this "wrong barca DNA"?
My claim is that Semedo is more then adequate RB but he is ONLY RB, his job must be simple. We can not expect him to dribble pass 4 players, and with our "style" his only option is to pass back and start this boring passing again. No one in te box attacking!
Now with Suarez injured we only have Pique (still only a defender), Busi and Messi from that old guard. I can not believe that those 2 guys are blocking our game!

Coach needs to see and adress that, and all I see from EV and now QS is praying for that one magical pass like that is our problem!!??

Yes, in the future we need number 9, a winger for Messi, new Busi...but we already have enough new faces that played faster in their former teams...look how many times FDJ waves his hands asking for someone to make a move.

I honestly think this is not down to players in physical sense but down to ther mental understanding of our game. For active football you don't have to be fast (Busi's speed problem will cost us when defending, but not in attack), but they have to understand that they are playing wrong.

I'm willing to bet if we buy Milner, VVD and firmino for example (so Busi, Pique and suarez in this example) we would play even worse as you can imagine Milner in thight spaces passing the ball 100 times with no purpose.

 

[Raketa10]

But I see FDJ, Umtiti, Lenglet, Arthur, Dembele, Vidal, Semedo, Griez..all new faces, they surely can't be influenced with this "wrong barca DNA"?
My claim is that Semedo is more then adequate RB but he is ONLY RB, his job must be simple. We can not expect him to dribble pass 4 players, and with our "style" his only option is to pass back and start this boring passing again. No one in te box attacking!
Now with Suarez injured we only have Pique (still only a defender), Busi and Messi from that old guard. I can not believe that those 2 guys are blocking our game!

Coach needs to see and adress that, and all I see from EV and now QS is praying for that one magical pass like that is our problem!!??

Yes, in the future we need number 9, a winger for Messi, new Busi...but we already have enough new faces that played faster in their former teams...look how many times FDJ waves his hands asking for someone to make a move.

I honestly think this is not down to players in physical sense but down to ther mental understanding of our game. For active football you don't have to be fast (Busi's speed problem will cost us when defending, but not in attack), but they have to understand that they are playing wrong.

I'm willing to bet if we buy Milner, VVD and firmino for example (so Busi, Pique and suarez in this example) we would play even worse as you can imagine Milner in thight spaces passing the ball 100 times with no purpose.

Yeah but Pique, Busi and Messi are unfortunately still essential for our way of playing. Football is a team sport, all 11 players need to contribute 100% or you just can't compete on the highest level. As I sad many times Messi is the only one who can be tolerated for running less or not fighting so hard in some parts of the game.

Imagine you are for example Umtiti (who was by the way injured half of the time during last two seasons) and you look at Pique who is more concerned about his business outside of the field, would you kill yourself to cover that acres of space left behind him? Or imagine you are De Jong and you are forced to play as a CM because Busi needs to play every single game as a DM? Or you are Griezmann or Coutinho and you are forced to play out of position without the ball, because every single play has to go trough Messi. Not to mention that because of playing outside of your position you will get a huge amount of hate from fans because you won't be able to deliver. So it's not "only" about those three it's about the entire flawed system where some players are being sacrificed for others. Those who are being sacrificed are loosing their will to perform because they can't give their best and those who are "holly cows" don't give a fuck because they know they will play regardless of how bad they are. The only solution I see is to get rid of these old guys and start rebuilding from scratch. The only "holly cow" left in the squad should be Messi and only for a max of 2 more years and even he has to play more positional type of football. Current version of Messi is harming and limiting other players because every single ball has to go trough him and that's just predictable and ineffective. He also has to understand that he can't do everything by himself since this is a team sport. Yes he is indisputable GOAT but he can't beat 11 players on his own every single time especially not in a CL matches. Every single game we have the same tactics and even when he has a bad day (for example Napoli game) we are still playing trough him 90% of the time.

The way we play sometimes reminds me of a school yard when younger children are playing with an older child and are forced to give him every single ball or they will get yelled at. There is no way in hell other players will be able to fulfill their entire potential in this type of football and that's also a reason why Griezmann or Coutinho or some others can't contribute as much as they should.

Juventus for example has a different but in a way similar problem with Ronaldo. He failed to score in 38 consecutive free kicks and Pjanic still has no permission to shoot. How the hell that became normal in modern football?! Those two became bigger than the rest of the squad and that's never good in the long run since others will start to underperform for sure.

Regarding Milner or VVD or Firminho I agree with you. But that's perfectly understandable. Milner is just an average player but he is being used right, in the way that emphasizes his strengths. I am 100% sure Milner would be 10x worse than Rakitic if he was signed by Barca! On the other side players like Griezmann, Coutinho, Demebele, FDJ who are 10 times the players Milner is were being used by Barca in a way that emphasized their weaknesses. All of that is happening because there are some players in Barca that are above our manager and cannot be benched or sold. I am willing to bet Pep would get rid of those within few seconds but coaches like Setien or Valverde can't do that because they actually have no power without the board. That's the reason I am 100% sure nothing will change before the elections in 2021.

 

[serghei]

But I see FDJ, Umtiti, Lenglet, Arthur, Dembele, Vidal, Semedo, Griez..all new faces, they surely can't be influenced with this "wrong barca DNA"?
My claim is that Semedo is more then adequate RB but he is ONLY RB, his job must be simple. We can not expect him to dribble pass 4 players, and with our "style" his only option is to pass back and start this boring passing again. No one in te box attacking!
Now with Suarez injured we only have Pique (still only a defender), Busi and Messi from that old guard. I can not believe that those 2 guys are blocking our game!

Coach needs to see and adress that, and all I see from EV and now QS is praying for that one magical pass like that is our problem!!??

Yes, in the future we need number 9, a winger for Messi, new Busi...but we already have enough new faces that played faster in their former teams...look how many times FDJ waves his hands asking for someone to make a move.

I honestly think this is not down to players in physical sense but down to ther mental understanding of our game. For active football you don't have to be fast (Busi's speed problem will cost us when defending, but not in attack), but they have to understand that they are playing wrong.

I'm willing to bet if we buy Milner, VVD and firmino for example (so Busi, Pique and suarez in this example) we would play even worse as you can imagine Milner in thight spaces passing the ball 100 times with no purpose.

I'll tell you something. The game vs Inter away that we played with mostly youngsters and that made-up high-energy team, no Busi, no Pique, no Messi, no Suarez for the most part, we actually were pretty sharp and fast in that match, unusually sharp and energetic I might add. I saw glimpses of real cutting edge football that is tailor made for CL. Faster stuff, more direct even. And although you could obviously see the lack of experience manifesting itself in that match, you could also spot the fact that the current slowness and lack of work-rate in this team is certainly tied to the veterans. And I might at that was with EV at the helm. EV might've been an actually highly competent manager if he had balls and wasn't so scared to rock the boat a bit.

I actually think it's time to move the team away from the veterans influence, and by that I mean Messi included. If you look at all the teams in CL, they attack with 10 and defend with 10, and everybody runs. I personally doesn't see how you can create a new team, a fast, hardworking team, around players who simply do not work hard enough anymore. The sort of stuff Messi and Suarez do, walking around and playing magic passes doesn't work in CL and hasn't worked for years. Now it's all about intensity, hard work, physicality and speed. As long as we're so far away from the best teams in these areas we don't have a shot at winning it. Not unless we have a lot of luck.

The galactico model doesn't work anymore. The sooner people accept this, the better. PSG and Barcelona who followed the Galactico model are the most lol-worthy teams in CL now. And also the teams where the players rule the club.

Sure, it's tough to do it, because we're talking about key players from a diamond era, maybe the best club football has seen. It's always tough to move away from legends, like Iniesta, Xavi, Alves, Messi, but it has to be done for the good of the team going forward.

 

[Gaudi]

I don't Know, it's impossible for us to Know what exactly is happening in the lockeroom or inside the Club, we can only gues...I mean for all we Know maybe Busi is complaining the most about our slow game, but I see so many discussion about Semedo, for example, and how we need another RB and for love of god I can't see anything different any RB would do in his situation.: no one in the box, 4 players ahead of him, everyone standing or offering short option but with backs to the goal, just to continue possession. He can only do what he does.

I still claim if we bought Mbappe instead of Dembele there would be huuuuuge discussion here how overated Mbappe is - nobody can excel in this statical brain fart.

 

[Potroh]

I still claim if we bought Mbappe instead of Dembele there would be huuuuuge discussion here how overated Mbappe is - nobody can excel in this statical brain fart.

Well said.
Mbappe is very good, but just like Dembele's, his main weapon is his pace. What can one do with speed in a sleepy and static play? Nothing, apart from rare counters.

Some people think that taking out a particular player from the context of the game-plan of his current team - always results the same success elsewhere.
A great mistake and one simply has to look at Hazard, Vinicius or Jovic at Real Madrid to see how difficult it is...

 

[JohnN]

I think the players we miss the most is an actually fast left winger and a real, fast no.9 to make runs and cause imbalance.
Then we need an attacking midfielder so Messi can be relieved from all the creation responsibility.

 

[Gaudi]

Even though I think most of us agree here about flaws in our "style...picture speaks for it self better than 1000 words:




3 Bayern goals today...when is the last time we saw so many Barca players in the box attacking? Having 80% possession is not attacking!

 

[serghei]

Even though I think most of us agree here about flaws in our "style...picture speaks for it self better than 1000 words:

View attachment 8748
View attachment 8749

3 Bayern goals today...when is the last time we saw so many Barca players in the box attacking? Having 80% possession is not attacking!

2014-15 probably.

I maintain my opinion that this is fitness and power related. You need legs to attack the box relentlessly all game like Bayern does it. We need to attract and sign stronger, faster players, and managers who build physically stronger formations.

 

[Gaudi]

But, i remember first goal against Juve in the finals...Iniesta in the box passing to Rakitic in the box.
Iniesta was already older than some of our current players and Rakitic was never fast. You don't just wake up one morning, on your 30th birthday for example and you are 50% slower than a day before.
Second, we don't need to do that all game, on the contrary, mixing it would be the best. Our current hold possession at any cost would still look more then ok if opposition doesn't just sit deep and waits...so score a goal with box attack and then hold the ball and probe defense. Mixing it up would even be our strength, no need to attack the box like crazy for 90 minutes.

Somehow i believe this is more a mental thing than anything else. Keep possession like you will die otherwise. Remember when Dembele dribbled a guy and crossed, when he just arrived? All he got for that was crazy yelling from Suarez.

 

[serghei]

But, i remember first goal against Juve in the finals...Iniesta in the box passing to Rakitic in the box.
Iniesta was already older than some of our current players and Rakitic was never fast. You don't just wake up one morning, on your 30th birthday for example and you are 50% slower than a day before.
Second, we don't need to do that all game, on the contrary, mixing it would be the best. Our current hold possession at any cost would still look more then ok if opposition doesn't just sit deep and waits...so score a goal with box attack and then hold the ball and probe defense. Mixing it up would even be our strength, no need to attack the box like crazy for 90 minutes.

Somehow i believe this is more a mental thing than anything else. Keep possession like you will die otherwise. Remember when Dembele dribbled a guy and crossed, when he just arrived? All he got for that was crazy yelling from Suarez.

Yes, but managers also play a part. Lucho was one of the managers we've had that paid the most importance to fitness and conditioning. I'd say it's a combination of lazyness, old age, not the right managers and also tactics.

Also, to take more risk you need quicker and stronger players in defense. We lack this physical edge, and compensate it with keeping the ball and having numbers.

 

[KingLeo10]

Yes, but managers also play a part. Lucho was one of the managers we've had that paid the most importance to fitness and conditioning. I'd say it's a combination of lazyness, old age, not the right managers and also tactics.

Also, to take more risk you need quicker and stronger players in defense. We lack this physical edge, and compensate it with keeping the ball and having numbers.

It's mostly complacency/loss of motivation and some aging.

Under Lucho, we ran on average 110-115 km in CL KO games in 14/15 and 100-105 km in CL KO games in 16/17.

 

[MagIX]

his change Braithwaite for Vidal cost us the match