Pep's Barca 10/11 v Liverpool 18/19 or Bayern 19/20

[Birdy]

All teams will struggle more against good defences.

You make out as if this was Peps weakness but you are comparing that team to a Liverpool team that was knocked out the CL to Atletico parked bus last season so they like all teams have struggled with that as well at times.

No I said its a perennial problem.
All good teams can get kicked out by a parked bus

 

[serghei]

The most dominating teams of an era always struggle against parked buses in Cup competitions. The problem in these comparisons is that the 2011 Barca was too good in the middle of the field. So they would inevitably control the game and turn otherwise offensive teams like current Bayern or Liverpool into trying to play a game as Chelsea and Inter did. And naturally offensive and attacking team just can't switch to 180 degrees and do a great job just when meeting one team.

They would lose not as worse as United, but not far off either.

 

[Birdy]

The most dominating teams of an era always struggle against parked buses in Cup competitions. The problem in these comparisons is that the 2011 Barca was too good in the middle of the field. So they would inevitably control the game and turn otherwise offensive teams like current Bayern or Liverpool into trying to play a game as Chelsea and Inter did. And naturally offensive and attacking team just can't switch to 180 degrees and do a great job just when meeting one team.

They would lose not as worse as United, but not far off either.

How they would inevitably dominate the midfield?
It's not as clear as you make it out, because that team never faced a side with the aggression of the current sides in pressing the first phased of the build up.
It will be the exact opposite of Chelsea and Inter ties.
Barca '11 would suffer to break their first 2 lines of aggressive pressing and probably concede goals there.
But when they would manage to break that, they would had good chances themselves to score with all the space left behind.

The pattern of such possible game would be completely different from the Chelsea and Inter ties and against parked buses ties in general

 

[serghei]

How they would inevitably dominate the midfield?
It's not as clear as you make it out, because that team never faced a side with the aggression of the current sides in pressing the first phased of the build up.
It will be the exact opposite of Chelsea and Inter ties.
Barca '11 would suffer to break their first 2 lines of aggressive pressing and probably concede goals there.
But when they would manage to break that, they would had good chances themselves to score with all the space left behind.

The pattern of such possible game would be completely different from the Chelsea and Inter ties and against parked buses ties in general

You have to be kidding. You're asking me how the likes of peak Xavi, Iniesta, Alves, Messi, Busquets would "survive" the pressing of Liverpool? Their pass and move was 10/10. Not only do they beat the press, but in 30 mins they push the other team back.

Pressing was not invented in the last 5-6 years mate. That 2010-2012 Madrid was a beast of a team, and they parked the bus and put Pepe in midfield .

 

[serghei]

Also, another point you are missing. We had phenomenal pressing as well. So, what is your bet, Liverpool with Milner and Henderson survive our press, or we with peak Messi, Xavi and Iniesta survive theirs?

Nah, things are simple imo. Barca would be the aggressor, and then the success of Liverpool or Bayern would depend on how well they hold up defensively, and how good they are on the counters.

I don't see either being too good defensively, so they would concede more than they could snatch on the counter. Especially Bayern. This team receives 4-5 goals even from Bundesliga sides ffs...

 

[Rory]

Birdy are you forgetting how even in the 2-8 we had about 3 very good chances to score in the first half and that was with the worst Barca side for a decade. Barca 10/11 would have a) created x2 - x5 more chances and would have converted many more of them than we managed to.

 

[Birdy]

You are letting your emotions guide your judgment...
I know prime Xavi, Iniesta, Messi, Alvez are semi-gods, BUT
again I am saying they never faced such coordinated effective aggression.

Don't compare it to Mardid 10-12, nothing like it. Madrid would try to set some traps in the first phases of build-up and apart from that they were bereft of any other sophistication in pressing

Birdy are you forgetting how even in the 2-8 we had about 3 very good chances to score in the first half and that was with the worst Barca side for a decade. Barca 10/11 would have a) created x2 - x5 more chances and would have converted many more of them than we managed to.

But I acknowledged that twice already.
Read my posts above.
Of course Barca '11 would create a lot against them, the problem is in the damage they are capable of inflicting on that Barca with their suffocation on the opponent

 

[Rory]

In 100 matches it?d probably be something like 50 wins Barca, 30 draws, 20 wins Bayern

Even that is generous imo

 

[Marshall D Teach]

I think people overrate the effectiveness of the bus tactic against Pep's Barca. Chelsea in 2012 had incredible luck, it could easily have been a blowout on another day. Inter 2010 wasn't as crazy but it still took a couple of favorable refereeing decisions for them to get through.

Chelsea in 2009 were pretty much able to shut us out at Stamford Bridge though. Iniesta's goal was our only shot on target if I'm not mistaken. That one has to be the best game anyone ever played against Pep's Barca.

 

[serghei]

I think people overrate the effectiveness of the bus tactic against Pep's Barca. Chelsea in 2012 had incredible luck, it could easily have been a blowout on another day. Inter 2010 wasn't as crazy but it still took a couple of favorable refereeing decisions for them to get through.

Chelsea in 2009 were pretty much able to shut us out at Stamford Bridge though. Iniesta's goal was our only shot on target if I'm not mistaken. That one has to be the best game anyone ever played against Pep's Barca.

Yea, Chelsea on Bridge was the best display quality-wise against Pep's Barca. By far. We dominated Chelsea on Camp Nou though and should've won that game by a couple of goals.

Overall, the tie was close.

 

[Rory]

But I acknowledged that twice already.
Read my posts above.
Of course Barca '11 would create a lot against them, the problem is in the damage they are capable of inflicting on that Barca with their suffocation on the opponent

So you're aware barca 10/11 would create more and therefore likely score more which suggests you believe we'd still concede something like 4-6 goals?

 

[serghei]

[MENTION=4451]Birdy[/MENTION], I think you're vastly underrating how good that team was technically. Pressing them would have been been very very ugly for the one who tried. I remember Pochettino got clever at some point with Espanyol and Barca just pulverized them 1-5 .

Firstly, Liverpool don't have the midfield to deal with Barca's pressure in the first place. Imagine Milner and Henderson trying to pass through our press. Liverpool is a mismatch, because while the teams are similar in a lot of ways, the Barca midfield blows Liverpool's away completely.

Also, Liverpool lack target men so the long balls would've been wasted. They don't have a Drogba or a Diego Milito.

Liverpool are a mismatch for 2011 Barca. Current Bayern too. Past versions of Bayern would fare better. The current one seems like a Pep Barca clone a bit too much to stand up to the real thing.

I think 2014 Atletico is a tougher match for 2011 Barca than either current Liverpool or Bayern. More aggressive, meaner, tougher at the back, and with a manager who will make it ugly just like Mourinho back in the days.

 

[serghei]

So you're aware barca 10/11 would create more and therefore likely score more which suggests you believe we'd still concede something like 4-6 goals?

That team never conceded more than 2 goals in any match I think. I remember a fluke 0-2 vs Hercules. A 2-2 with Valencia I think, and some results like that. 1-2 vs Arsenal.

 

[khaled_a_d]

Pep's Barca used to suffer against parked buses as well, all CL eliminations were against parked buses.
Parked buses is a perennial problem.

Which is exactly my point.
If you want to argue that some other teams might be more equipped to play against those parked the bus team, we can make an argument although those 2 teams didn't have much luck overall against this type of defense either.
But head to head? They will play into Barca lab IMO.
We were the most press resistant team in the history, we had 2 great FB who had enough speed to compete with anyone, and same with CB, we had the players to punish a highline defense too.
They didn't have what it takes to punish our weaknesses, nor to stop our strength.

That Barca could suffer but only against elite defensive sides with monster strikers and great playmakers. Iron defense was always a constant, but was not the only thing that was needed. Not even close.

Chelsea and Inter were equipped with a super-strong defense, but also with strikers like Eto'o, Drogba, Milito in their prime.

You had to have world-class strikers of a certain profile to bite Barca on the counter. Simeone would probably lose, even with his great side of 2014. Atletico is were never as good 2009 Chelsea or 2010 Inter.

Tbh, we'd have it easier now, because the standard of defending has gone down. Football is more offensive and the big teams are all focusing on attacking. Pep's Barca always loved sides who wanted to play, and hated strong defensive sides who would take the game in the trenches.

I don't think Milito was much better than prime Diego Costa tbh, he was a bit overrated too.
Eto against us played more of a tactical game than punishing us as attacker IMO.
Drogba was 34 when he faced us in 2012, he scored 13 goals in 46 games that year, same in 2009 too btw.
Atletico always had that good attacker in their disposal tbf. And I would argue that on the defensive end they were as good as anyone ever.

You are letting your emotions guide your judgment...
I know prime Xavi, Iniesta, Messi, Alvez are semi-gods, BUT
again I am saying they never faced such coordinated effective aggression.

Who did Liverpool in 2019 face?
They finished 2nd in groups stage, tied at points with Napoli.
They beat one of the worst Bayern teams in the decade 3-1
And then Porto
And in the final a Tottenham team that was only there because Ajax and Inter were jokes at the end.
Only respectful opponent were us, and they have beaten us 4-3 and we weren't half the team we played in 2011.
In the league the only team that had pressing they faces were City, 0-0 and 1-2 loss. 1 goal in 1 matches.

Bayern 2020?
A joke of League and cup that had no single good opponent, an easy group stage.
Then they faced Chelsea who had mediocre coach and average season.
Worst Barca in a decade and half, with their worst coach in this century (ok, that is debatable since I know you rate Setien high) .
Lyon!!!
A PSG who had easy draw to final since forever. And even then they didn't dominate the Fench sides.
Which of those teams exactly showed 25% of Barca aggression back then? Which of those were even half good?

 

[Xaviniesta]

I think people overrate the effectiveness of the bus tactic against Pep's Barca. Chelsea in 2012 had incredible luck, it could easily have been a blowout on another day. Inter 2010 wasn't as crazy but it still took a couple of favorable refereeing decisions for them to get through.

Chelsea in 2009 were pretty much able to shut us out at Stamford Bridge though. Iniesta's goal was our only shot on target if I'm not mistaken. That one has to be the best game anyone ever played against Pep's Barca.

madrid 2010/11 faced 4 games against us, all were pretty close. 1 loss 2 draws 1 win (close game before the red)

the copa final we couldn't do anything in the 1st half, second half we had like 2 shots. then we lose in ET. i remember people saying madrid were going to knock us out of the CL after that game