Liverpool vs Real Madrid - Who do you want to see win?

[Birdy]

Klopp's trophy count is pretty low for an all time great manager but then he takes on big challenges and stuff so you can't just judge based on trophies.

He's not a ruthless winner but he has completely changed the culture around the club.

He's a top 15-20 coach of all time currently imo. If he wins tomorrow, top 15 definitely.

Ancelotti already a top 10 coach oat for me.

Klopp is already a top10 manager of all time.
It's not the sheer number of trophies as you said, but other things to factor in like:
influence in the development of the sport, changing the status of a single club (he has done it thrice) w/o oil money, etc

That's what many don't understand in deciding the topX managers of all time, and think that Zidane for instance is anywhere close to a top list because he won 3 CLs. No, he has to do much more than that to be in the list

 

[Temptation]

Klopp is already a top10 manager of all time.
It's not the sheer number of trophies as you said, but other things to factor in like:
influence in the development of the sport, changing the status of a single club (he has done it thrice) w/o oil money, etc

That's what many don't understand in deciding the topX managers of all time, and think that Zidane for instance is anywhere close to a top list because he won 3 CLs. No, he has to do much more than that to be in the list

Klopp is top 15 for me currently. Only a matter of time before he's in top 10.

Zidane nowhere near. Won't rate him until he does something great elsewhere. I still don't know what his philosophy is. What is a Zidane team?

 

[Birdy]

It's nice to be the underdog in the eyes of everyone despite the history in this competition.
Time and again people will count us out and cling onto Birdy-like ideas that RM dont 'deserve' to be where they are, which only makes RM more motivated.
Thinking is like this even at top echelon where Schmeichel just smiles and throws hands up in the air saying he doesn't understand lol

It's not that you are the underdog.
It's rather that more and more people from football nowadays finally 'get it' that you ride on luck rather than quality on the pitch to make CL runs to finals.
It was not so clear for many during the audacious '3peat' (only brave journos like Cox would say it openly), because somehow some still cling to the fucked-up idea that a trophy win is a proof that the best team won it.

Now it's clear as daylight to most in the football world, and that's a big win for the sport itself

 

[KingLeo10]

It's not that you are the underdog.
It's rather that more and more people from football nowadays finally 'get it' that you ride on luck rather than quality on the pitch to make CL runs to finals.
It was not so clear for many during the audacious '3peat' (only brave journos like Cox would say it openly), because somehow some still cling to the fucked-up idea that a trophy win is a proof that the best team won it.

Now it's clear as daylight to most in the football world, and that's a big win for the sport itself

If it were a one off CL win, like Chelsea 2012 trolling Barca and Bayern, then sure.

But now it's potentially going to be their 5th win 5 CL finals in 9 years. That's not just luck.

 

[Birdy]

If it were a one off CL win, like Chelsea 2012 trolling Barca and Bayern, then sure.

But now it's potentially going to be their 5th win 5 CL finals in 9 years. That's not just luck.

That's another self-evident 'truth', which is not based on any logical grounds, similar to the 'best team wins the trophy'
It's a easy to digest motto, but in fact an illicit assumption from the pov of logic.

Yes it can be just luck if you can specify in each of those CL wins how and why they were worse than 1 or more opponents in a knock-out tie.
From what I can judge, only 2017 CL is a case I cannot see any luck bestowed to RM.

 

[Temptation]

The 3 peat wouldn't be possible in the VAR era.

Some of the decisions that went their way was a joke. Let's not ignore that.

 

[Birdy]

The 3 peat wouldn't be possible in the VAR era.

Some of the decisions that went their way was a joke. Let's not ignore that.

vs Bayern in 2017?
Maybe, but they were better in that 2legged tie

 

[Horatio]

If Pool loses, Klopp is pretty much a finals choker (1-3 in CL finals). If he wins, he gains entry into the top 10 managers of all time.

A bit harsh. With Borussia it was an accomplishment in itself reaching final.
And then the second time you have Karius with the worst keeper performance in a final and your star player Salah taken out by Ramos.

 

[FC B]

The 3 peat wouldn't be possible in the VAR era.

Some of the decisions that went their way was a joke. Let's not ignore that.

Undoubtedly there were helped by refs as much and as often as necessary back in the day 2016-2018 but even now with VAR there were some decisive refereeing "errors" going their way in the return legs vs. PSG and City.

And this is such a pitty, I thought, after 3 straight clean years with VAR that we escaped the Madrid's notorious refereeing issues but this year showed that is not the case, sadly.

 

[LFCB]

used up a bit of your luck in 2009 tbf(even though you were the best team but that Chelsea game).....

In 2019, we were better than you tbh. The 3 0 scoreline in the first leg was massively flattering and was an anomaly on the day if we're being honest. The game was much closer than a 3 0 scoreline.

Let's stop banging on about the Chelsea game... Also, 3-0 still happened (1v11 for the most party) and anyone bar PSG would have seen that through. Barca were good in first half of the 2nd leg, Messi set up 3 clear chances and all we had to do was play to our strengths. For me that means keep the ball away from ter-Stegen and Alba, then pass it around. There's no arguing that Barca were a better technical team but we played into your hands massively.

It's hard not to keep coming back to PSG because it gave the team a false sense of security. Plod around away from home and we'll jus turn it around, that can't be the mentality.

 

[Temptation]

Let's stop banging on about the Chelsea game... Also, 3-0 still happened (1v11 for the most party) and anyone bar PSG would have seen that through. Barca were good in first half of the 2nd leg, Messi set up 3 clear chances and all we had to do was play to our strengths. For me that means keep the ball away from ter-Stegen and Alba, then pass it around. There's no arguing that Barca were a better technical team but we played into your hands massively.

It's hard not to keep coming back to PSG because it gave the team a false sense of security. Plod around away from home and we'll jus turn it around, that can't be the mentality.

I'd disagree. Our 18/19 was a better team overall than Barca 18/19. VVD was a monster that season. One of the most dominant seasons ever by a CB.

In the 2nd leg we played without Salah and Firmino(was world class back then).

 

[Fati_Future_BallonDor]

Real Madrid's path reminds me a bit of Tottenham's in 2019. Every time when City scored Tottenham came back in the return leg, then against Ajax 0-3 behind but they never gave up and scored the 3 which they need to reach the final. Pochettino's warrior mentality Tottenham

 

[LFCB]

I'd disagree. Our 18/19 was a better team overall than Barca 18/19. VVD was a monster that season. One of the most dominant seasons ever by a CB.

In the 2nd leg we played without Salah and Firmino(was world class back then).

Messi was maybe in his most complete form and highly motivated. Just looking at the LFC team in the 2nd leg makes your eyes bleed and makes it 10x more humilitating.
The ancient players didn't consider it could have been their last chance to win the trophy. I still can't get my head around why they didn't have the ambition and bottle following RM's run and getting a lucky advantage.
I can't think of a big CL game in which RM were the better team but they push through and mutliple players shine; Barca left it to one man.

 

[Morten]

It's not that you are the underdog.
It's rather that more and more people from football nowadays finally 'get it' that you ride on luck rather than quality on the pitch to make CL runs to finals.
It was not so clear for many during the audacious '3peat' (only brave journos like Cox would say it openly), because somehow some still cling to the fucked-up idea that a trophy win is a proof that the best team won it.

Now it's clear as daylight to most in the football world, and that's a big win for the sport itself

By "get it", you mean statistics becoming more available, and more people read them?

 

[Birdy]

By "get it", you mean statistics becoming more available, and more people read them?

That too...
Even before, judging by the 'eye' as many here say, you could still say X team got lucky in a game where opponent missed sitters and X scored wordlies.
The advanced stats made it just easier to quantify the quality of an attempt on goal, and easier to debunk takes not taking that into account.

But i don't think Schmeichel read any of xStats to say RM doesn't deserve to be in the final