Lionel "The Greatest of All Time" Messi

[Windhook]

He's pushing himself for the WC 2022 which is still a year in time. Decline is normal at his age, but seems to me Leo's gotten lazy at PSG thinking he's surrounded by megastars Mbappe, Veratti, Neymar, Ramos. On paper, yeah.

 

[Morten]

He's pushing himself for the WC 2022 which is still a year in time. Decline is normal at his age, but seems to me Leo's gotten lazy at PSG thinking he's surrounded by megastars Mbappe, Veratti, Neymar, Ramos. On paper, yeah.

Ramos, yes, another aging star that the coach has to fit in there.

Ramos could still be good for them for all i know, but he is old, and has been injuried for most of the year.

 

[OGbarca]

The level of trolling/flip flopping from Messigician and Rassvet is getting out of hand now.

Would you rather have Ibra's goal scoring record in Ligue 1 and MLS or Messi's goal scoring record in LL and CL.

Of all the players you could stan for (CR7, Lewa etc.), you choose a guy who was a complete CL flop and who got overshadowed by Messi H2H in every CL encounter.

seriously though, what is your argument on behalf of messi now? he has been shit at PSG and in his last years at barca he was also unable to make a difference. the only bright spot on his resume over the last 3-4 years is the copa (america) victory

he is walking around doing little at PSg (which has a much stronger squad than barca) just like he was doing here. i dont see what excuses there are to make

 

[Laplacian]

We're really seeing it now! Remember when quite a few users would say what Messi does at Barcelona wouldn't be tolerated in any other team if he ever moved on from us? Damn, French media is going nuts on him especially PSG fans. It's insane, why now when he's been doing this for years? At Barcelona Messi walked around because "he was analyzing the opponent" (hi Valverde), and now the narrative has shifted to it's because he's lazy and/or has declined..?

It's just so bizarre seeing the media turn on him after they sang his praises for 13 or so years.

 

[OGbarca]

We're really seeing it now! Remember when quite a few users would say what Messi does at Barcelona wouldn't be tolerated in any other team if he ever moved on from us? Damn, French media is going nuts on him especially PSG fans. It's insane, why now when he's been doing this for years? At Barcelona Messi walked around because "he was analyzing the opponent" (hi Valverde), and now the narrative has shifted to it's because he's lazy and/or has declined..?

It's just so bizarre seeing the media turn on him after they sang his praises for 13 or so years.

i have been saying this FOR A LOOOOONG TIME

 

[Rassvet]

"It makes me sad," Van der Vaart said, per Marca. "It's a question of desire. Does he [Messi] want it or not?

"When you compare him to Cristiano Ronaldo, one is fighting to take his team to the next level - and one isn't.

"Messi walks now and then. I look at him and think, 'Aren't you ashamed?'

 

[Laplacian]

i have been saying this FOR A LOOOOONG TIME

Yes I know. You, BBZ, Serghei and a few others are probably nutting on an hourly basis because of all this. Congrats!

 

[KingLeo10]

seriously though, what is your argument on behalf of messi now? he has been shit at PSG and in his last years at barca he was also unable to make a difference. the only bright spot on his resume over the last 3-4 years is the copa (america) victory

he is walking around doing little at PSg (which has a much stronger squad than barca) just like he was doing here. i dont see what excuses there are to make

My counter argument is what it's always been. People peak at different stages of their career, due to different circumstances.

The problem I have is when people reduce the time window to the last 3-4 years when Messi has either been old or had terrible teams (at Barca at least, not PSG. If he flops with PSG, it's a combination of his fault and partly (to a lesser degree) age).

I legitimately cannot find another player who had a peak like Messi did from 08 to 2015 (3 CL, 5 league titles, 5 Ballon D'Or, 91 goals a calendar year, averaging 50+ goals and 20 assists a season), which is just summarily dismissed by his detractors (including you, not hating, but just look at your post and the bit about the last 3-4 years), who point out how CR7 has had much more RECENT success in the CL. I'm not a fanboy (like say Blackened) who will claim Messi has had a better career than CR7 post 2015. That's simply not true.

But then if we segment time periods, then you also have to admit that Messi overshadowed CR7 both in trophies, individual stats, and H2H from 08 to 2015, which people conveniently forget. If you don't segment and look at their whole careers, their achievements are pretty similar to me. And at that point, it comes to personal preference, where I believe Messi's peak was the best I've ever seen. You can hold another view, that's fine.

My problem with Rassvet these days is the flip flopping. He's the only one who cares about Messi winning Ballon D'Or this year and he's the first one to troll Messi after every match. Pick a side (like you and I have) and stick with it. I know he's partly trolling but his and Messigician's act has gotten old now.

 

[OGbarca]

My counter argument is what it's always been. People peak at different stages of their career, due to different circumstances.

The problem I have is when people reduce the time window to the last 3-4 years when Messi has either been old or had terrible teams (at Barca at least, not PSG. If he flops with PSG, it's a combination of his fault and partly (to a lesser degree) age).

I legitimately cannot find another player who had a peak like Messi did from 08 to 2015 (3 CL, 5 league titles, 5 Ballon D'Or, 91 goals a calendar year, averaging 50+ goals and 20 assists a season), which is just summarily dismissed by his detractors (including you, not hating, but just look at your post and the bit about the last 3-4 years), who point out how CR7 has had much more RECENT success in the CL. I'm not a fanboy (like say Blackened) who will claim Messi has had a better career than CR7 post 2015. That's simply not true.

But then if we segment time periods, then you also have to admit that Messi overshadowed CR7 both in trophies, individual stats, and H2H from 08 to 2015, which people conveniently forget. If you don't segment and look at their whole careers, their achievements are pretty similar to me. And at that point, it comes to personal preference, where I believe Messi's peak was the best I've ever seen. You can hold another view, that's fine.

My problem with Rassvet these days is the flip flopping. He's the only one who cares about Messi winning Ballon D'Or this year and he's the first one to troll Messi after every match. Pick a side (like you and I have) and stick with it. I know he's partly trolling but his and Messigician's act has gotten old now.

the thing is, i agree, messi was far and away the best until 2015. why then is he supposed to keep on winning ballon dors, then, if by your own reckoning messi's best years are behind him?

 

[OGbarca]

Yes I know. You, BBZ, Serghei and a few others are probably nutting on an hourly basis because of all this. Congrats!

it is satisfying, to be sure, but more than that it is frustrating because the cost to our club was, in my view, too high

 

[KingLeo10]

I will add that it's too soon to judge his PSG stint. If they go out in R of 16, he has majority blame. If they make CL semis or finals, it's a decent season. If they win it's a success.

No one's making excuses for Messi. I hold him and CR7 to the absolute GOAT standards, and will criticize Messi if PSG turn up an absolute stinker. I just happen to prefer Messi and find CR7's histrionics funny (his PR and all that), which is why I make fun of CR7 more.

 

[OGbarca]

so for example, KL, what are we to make of messigician who legitimately believes messi today is better than lewa? obviously youre not responsible for others' opinions, but my point more generally is that for many years now too many on this forum keep on singing messis praises like he is still in 2012 form despite the obvious failures since Roma and in the league for 2 years. i just dont understand it

 

[KingLeo10]

the thing is, i agree, messi was far and away the best until 2015. why then is he supposed to keep on winning ballon dors, then, if by your own reckoning messi's best years are behind him?

I've been saying this for years. Only his 2016-2017 and 2018-2019 was comparable to his prime years. He's nowhere close to prime Messi since 2019. In fact, it's an insult to prime Messi (who dribbled from halfway line against the likes of RM and destroyed Bayern, United etc.) to compare this old and declined version of Messi to him.

 

[KingLeo10]

so for example, KL, what are we to make of messigician who legitimately believes messi today is better than lewa? obviously youre not responsible for others' opinions, but my point more generally is that for many years now too many on this forum keep on singing messis praises like he is still in 2012 form despite the obvious failures since Roma and in the league for 2 years. i just dont understand it

It's Messigician. He doesn't genuinely believe in anything. He believes in whatever will cause chaos on the forums at any given time.

 

[KingLeo10]

I’m not really flip flopping of late. I want Messi to win the ballon d’or and do well but think he has declined a lot and his performances of late have been terrible.

It’s not much different than someone supporting Barcelona while being very negative and pessimistic about the state of the club.

I think the difference is that Messi fans (not fanboys) praise him when he performs to world class standards at 34. And accept that he won't dominate every match or even often at 34. I actually would afford CR7 the same leeway if his fanboys didn't claim he has the body and fitness of a 24 year old at 37. That and I have a Messi bias (but not blinders).

I think your benchmark (from my impression) is set to a very high level (prime Messi or somewhere close to that), which he simply can't deliver unless you have a time machine.