If you waited like 3 months, you could have said you technically were correct.
You overplayed your hand.
Lionel Messi - v7
- Thread starter Barcaman
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If you waited like 3 months, you could have said you technically were correct.
You overplayed your hand.
KingLeo10
Senior Member
I wasn't thinking about this edition being over but we are eliminated, so fair enough. But my broader point still stands, 1 in 10 or 2 in 11. It's all about how you slice and dice and you do slice and dice data according to the conclusions you want to make.You want to address my points on the 5 v 5 pen misses for Messi v CR7 in big games, now? I also like how you skirted his Man United misses under the rug - "since he became a robot at RM". They were in his Ballon D'Or season and he was in his prime. It doesn't work this way.
BBZ8800
Senior Member
I don't care about CDR, but Barca and Messi obviously do.
About Messi vs Cr7, Messi is a clear pick for La Liga competitions.
He just knows ways how to score consistently against La liga opponents, no one can deny that.
There isn't a single better domestic league player in the last 20 years (in the world).
But for years, I have an impression that something is off with Messi whenever he steps out of La liga and league competitions.
In a CL in the last 10 years, he was mostly below his level.
On World cups and Copas, he barely scored in KO matches in his life and he usually played below his level in NT finals.
Connected with that, imo Cdr is similar.
Why?
Because on a psychological level, imo, Messi plays better when the match is not a sudden death match (aka KO match).
If we play a round 13 of La liga against Atletico, he will score a pen.
But if we play a 2nd leg of semis vs Sevilla/Vslencia, at 0:1 in the 80th minute = he turns into that weird, nervous-stroking his beard Messi who's every pen is let's say 50:50%.
In that sense, you can spot a clear pattern over Messi's career, especially after Pep/his vomitting days/when he started to be a father/when Messi vs Cr7 debate started/when Argie fans started to doubt him.
After that, in away KO matches he often started to sulk and disappear, the same is with NT KO matches and especially finals.
Look, Messi is a human.
And even though he says that he doesn't care about titles, Ballon D Or, GOAT rivalry, records = it is clear that a pressure got into his head and he loses control/calmness/concentration easier than CR7 in KO matches in clutch moments.
But as I have said, for a league competition, over 38 rounds, where there is no sudden death and where 1 mistake won't cost you = he is the best player ever.
For KO matches, where 1 game/1 action/1 shot/1 pen is either a win or death = probably not.
And please don't ask me to compare him with other greats because no other player except Messi/CR7 had a privilege to play 15-17 CL seasons in a row.
Van Basten, Muller and Maradona played 3-4 CLs in their careers, for example.
Hardy
Senior Member
BBZ8800
Senior Member
Cr7 was a clown type of a player in early days.
In late Man Utd days, he improved.
But it was not a Cr7 from 2012-2020.
So, my point is that over a career CR7 improved into a guy: less skilful but quite driven, determined and concentrated.
With less skills than Messi, he turned into a guy who found a smart simple way to score tapins on the far post and headers.
And a guy who doesn't miss PKs or chances in the 92nd minute.
Messi turned from an immortal into a mentally shaken human as his career progressed.
This is why I removed early years.
Back then, Messi was a young, brave GOAT.
CR7 was a good but nowhere near as good player.
Over years, Messi didn't work on his diet and psychology.
Messi is just a pure talent, without too much work, let's say it that way.
While CR7 reached semi-GOAT level with way weaker skills but with a lot of work on himself.
In that sense, PKs from Cr7 in the last decade and his clutch KO performances are a result of his mentality and hard work, not result of his natural skills.
With Messi, it's the opposite.
Tons of talent, less work on planning of matches/rest/diet etc
Just remember how CR7 lost weight and muscles to keep his pace in 30s.
Or how he used to skip/lose CDR matches in order to be fresh for CL KO matches in April.
While naive Messi wanted to play 1/16 of CDR against Compostela and similar and he would be dead tired in April, when we needed him the most.
That's the type of planning/working on himself/raising your chances for big titles.
Cr7 is a calculated and a cheater to some extent.
Messi is better, but with a weaker mental strength and quite naive (wanting to play nice football and wanting to play every minute of every match) approach.
I rambled a lot in this post, but you'll get the point about a change in approach during their careers and why I removed PK misses from a young (not YET robotic) CR7.
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KingLeo10
Senior Member
Not to mention he's undefeated in CL finals when he does make them...and put on probably the best CL performance of the last 15-20 years v United in 2011. Even Ferdinand regularly admits he was embarrassed by Messi that night.
I have no problem with people claiming CR7 is a better scorer than Messi in CL...he has a more varied arsenal and I would take him to win a CL match one way or another (over anybody else in the history of football except for maybe Puskas or Gerd Muller). But when Messi is dominant in the CL (RM, Bayern, United, Liverpool), there's just a different gear to his game.
And the narrative of Van Basten, Maradona and co having only gotten 5-6 years in the CL I've already posed a major flaw in BBZ's line of reasoning. You can't extrapolate their success in the 5-6 years (which happened to be their prime) to success they would have achieved over 15-17 CL seasons. If we just look at Messi's 08 - 15 CL performances or CR7's 14-18 CL performances, they destroy anything that Van Basten or Maradona did.
CatalinR10
Senior Member
Imagine a player , regardless of his name , having an outstanding 2-3 months but as soon as he has a bad game , you appear after 3 months on silence to shit on him.
Nah fam , it just means that you have no honour .
BBZ8800
Senior Member
True.
But Messi has 3 and a half CLs, let's say it that way.
With 16 straight CL attempts.
I don't think that Van Basten or Muller would have 8.
But...
Young Messi played with Ronaldinho.
And later with the best generation ever (Peps days).
Then he won it with the most expensive attacking trio MSN in a history.
So, it is not as if he played with bums.
Further, even if Barca sucks today, we were good in 06, 07, 08 under Rijkaard, in 09, 10, 11, 12 under Pep, in 13 and 14, and in 3 years with MSN in 15, 16, 17.
So, let's say that Messi had at least 12 seasons where his team was either the best in the world (06, 2008-2012, 2015-17) or among the best.
That is 12 nice attempts for a CL title.
Now again, how many similar attempts had Van Basten or Muller?
They won 2 in 4-5 attempts.
In that sense, imo, they would also had 3-4 CLs if they would have played for 12 years for Milan/Bayern and if a CL would have 4 teams from big countries like today.
In that sense, I think that Messi's CL career (and especially NT career) is not on a GOAT level.
Both Muller and Basten won 2 Cls in 4 attempts iirc, yet both of them also won World cup/Euros from 2-3 attempts playing a key role on that tournament and in a final.
If someone will reply: Argentina sucked during Messi.
Well, Argentina won 2 World cups and numerous Copas in the past.
And Netherlands were eternal losers with 0 wins.
Van Basten managed to bring them their only NT title ever in 1988 (they have numerous semifinal and finals defeats since 70s).
So, sorry, I can't buy that story.
Messi's CL and NT career was not on a GOAT level compared to some other greats.
At best, he is tied with them.
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KingLeo10
Senior Member
Well, Muller and Van Basten aren't exactly chopped liver. So, while I can see them having 1 or 2 more CLs to match Messi over 15 years...there are other aspects to consider:
10 LL, 4 (or 3.5) CL, 700+ goals, 300+ assists, 120 CL goals (50 CL KO goals) is GOAT level, no two ways about it. Is he the undisputed GOAT (as in a level above other GOAT tier players) ? I don't think so. So, I don't see where I'm overestimating Messi's achievements.
DonAK
President of FC Barcelona
Don't forget he's admitted to actively rooted for our own players to fail.
He was even hoping Frenkie would flop just because he was obsessed with the tall and strong Adrien Rabiot and wanted him instead.
KingLeo10
Senior Member
And everyone talks about Messi and CR7's teammates...Muller only won anything playing with Beckenbauer and that dominant Bayern/German team. And Van Basten had Rijkaard, Gullit, Maldini, Baresi at the club level and Rijkaard and Gullit at the NT level. Messi never had anything like Gullit and Rijkaard at Argentina level (though I will also agree Messi has underachieved with NT). Still, have to be fair.
Same is true for R9...won the WC with Rivaldo, R10, Cafu, and R.Carlos.
Same is true for pretty much any GOAT tier player...a little bit of luck with great teammates is always involved.
Same is true for R9...won the WC with Rivaldo, R10, Cafu, and R.Carlos.
Same is true for pretty much any GOAT tier player...a little bit of luck with great teammates is always involved.
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