Lionel Messi - v7

[Rory]

There is no common ground with some people. They are more interested in winning a point, winning an argument / an agenda than actually conversing. Same can be said for both sides to some degree. The fact is some people like to come here to feel superior and so attack the easy-to-attack posts. They get their release of serotonin and then that's it, job done. I didn't see anyone make a counter to my points about how the match yesterday was nothing to do with how messi played. And yet, pages and pages of new posts are on this thread. Becoming relatively pointless to be part of this community tbh.

 

[sikkboy]

Sorry, but you start 'ad hominem' attacks like 'you are a fucking loser' 'get a grip' etc

I said the plain thing that your initial premise is out of reality (Salah being given a pass on pressing by Klop).
I bet you have not watched many Liverpool games to say so. Having watched almost all Liverpool games since 2018, I cannot start a conversation with someone stating something out and out false, because it's evident that you don't know what you are talking about (maybe that's what you assume based on the few games you have watched and maybe you have not paid much attention. Who knows?)
Important thing is for any conversation to flourish you have to agree on factual stuff.
That's the starting point.

I think I am a user who puts some effort in replying and compiling long posts when necessary.
So, if you want a substantive conversation, do some homework, watch some Liverpool games, and come back with the factual stuff clear enough.



I do not know you and I do not have any intention of negating you personally (contrary to what you may assume).
I am patiently trying to see if there is any substantial point in your thoughts that has not been debunked already.

But my patience is not limitless.
When Serghei, BBZ, Te amo, and others here constantly and laboriously prove every Messi Fanboy camp point weak and incapable of answering our criticism, you (all Messi fanboys here) just overlook that and move on. You never admit concession.
The problem is you just can't do that in an argumentative dispute.

How are you expecting people to respect your thoughts when you refuse to acknowledge that points brought in against Messi have never been answered even slightly.

Perfect example of how you (Messi fanboy camp) never really counter our points is your answers below:


That is happening in football nowadays contrary to what you say.
Liverpool and Bayern, City and then many other lesser sides exercise pressing until the end of the game. They conserve energy not by ceasing pressing at any point, but by moving in an orderly way and not run like headless chickens.


No, he cannot. Simple empirical observation gathered from the last 6 years to say the least.
He presses for a little bit when he wants, never consistently, and with no discernible pattern (hence it's not coach directive)


This means that the coach should allow Messi as much pressing as his athletic ability allows, which is minimal?
In that sense you already conceded that a team with Messi pressing as much as his athletic ability allows will press... NOT THAT much compared to teams where 10 players pressure all the time.


First of all, I think you are confusing his past with his present.
In the past, yeah, he was able to create out of nothing goals assists breaks and provide a chance with high xG (or finish a chance with low xG)
Can he still do that currently? No way. He thinks he can because he starts attempts that resemble in concept his old 'out - of - nowhere' magic and most of the time end miserably. This season to say the least, but if you examine him in retrospect with open mind you can definitely see declining every year in that ability.

Proven the OPPOSITE according to the points above:
Magic-out-of nowhere: 98% this season absent (new problem), so it's an 'expensive' risk to take for the 2% of the time that he delivers that. Expensive, because it leads to possession loss. So MINUS here
Structural and positional chaos in attack with him (old problem): MINUS
Non-existent pressing (whenever he wants, a few times per game) (old problem): MINUS

I have tree MINUSes already and I am looking in earnest for the PLUS here..

Look mate, if you want to use the last 6 yrs to beat Messi, you've outed yourself. BY all means cal him out this last 12 months but agai, he's been the one real bright spark, albeit only flickering occasionally, in an otherwise dysmal season and a half. I really don't think you're looking at this objectively, and if as Mitchell above said you genuinely want to have your views respected, and you obviuosly do based on the amount of effort you're putting into your posts, then you need a more level-headed approach to the subject.

 

[Rory]

Also can we have no more posts for a few weeks about how messi shouldn't be playing. Both Fati and Dembele are injured, what is anyone expecting? Some B team player?

 

[Birdy]

Look mate, if you want to use the last 6 yrs to beat Messi, you've outed yourself. BY all means cal him out this last 12 months but agai, he's been the one real bright spark, albeit only flickering occasionally, in an otherwise dysmal season and a half. I really don't think you're looking at this objectively, and if as Mitchell above said you genuinely want to have your views respected, and you obviuosly do based on the amount of effort you're putting into your posts, then you need a more level-headed approach to the subject.

I was referring to his pressing, didn't say he had been shit for 6 years.
But I also said there is a trend developing the last many years, and now you see its final development.
Serghei said something similar above.

I was more of a crazy Messi fan some years back than the most loud here are right now.
So no use of accusing my of that kind of bias. He declined and his flaws on/off the pitch are atm impossible to cure

 

[sikkboy]

There is no common ground with some people. They are more interested in winning a point, winning an argument / an agenda than actually conversing. Same can be said for both sides to some degree. The fact is some people like to come here to feel superior and so attack the easy-to-attack posts. They get their release of serotonin and then that's it, job done. I didn't see anyone make a counter to my points about how the match yesterday was nothing to do with how messi played. And yet, pages and pages of new posts are on this thread. Becoming relatively pointless to be part of this community tbh.

Of course not because he was probably one of the better players over the course of the 90mins; a good positive 45, followed ufortunately by an increasing drop in performance as the 2nd half wore on and he became tired, which really wasn't surprising. These low block barriers put up I suspect are perhaps even more mentally tiring then they are physically, for both teams.

 

[Daniele]

Sorry, but you start 'ad hominem' attacks like 'you are a fucking loser' 'get a grip' etc

I said the plain thing that your initial premise is out of reality (Salah being given a pass on pressing by Klop).
I bet you have not watched many Liverpool games to say so. Having watched almost all Liverpool games since 2018, I cannot start a conversation with someone stating something out and out false, because it's evident that you don't know what you are talking about (maybe that's what you assume based on the few games you have watched and maybe you have not paid much attention. Who knows?)
Important thing is for any conversation to flourish you have to agree on factual stuff.
That's the starting point.

I think I am a user who puts some effort in replying and compiling long posts when necessary.
So, if you want a substantive conversation, do some homework, watch some Liverpool games, and come back with the factual stuff clear enough.



I do not know you and I do not have any intention of negating you personally (contrary to what you may assume).
I am patiently trying to see if there is any substantial point in your thoughts that has not been debunked already.

But my patience is not limitless.
When Serghei, BBZ, Te amo, and others here constantly and laboriously prove every Messi Fanboy camp point weak and incapable of answering our criticism, you (all Messi fanboys here) just overlook that and move on. You never admit concession.
The problem is you just can't do that in an argumentative dispute.

How are you expecting people to respect your thoughts when you refuse to acknowledge that points brought in against Messi have never been answered even slightly.

Perfect example of how you (Messi fanboy camp) never really counter our points is your answers below:


That is happening in football nowadays contrary to what you say.
Liverpool and Bayern, City and then many other lesser sides exercise pressing until the end of the game. They conserve energy not by ceasing pressing at any point, but by moving in an orderly way and not run like headless chickens.


No, he cannot. Simple empirical observation gathered from the last 6 years to say the least.
He presses for a little bit when he wants, never consistently, and with no discernible pattern (hence it's not coach directive)


This means that the coach should allow Messi as much pressing as his athletic ability allows, which is minimal?
In that sense you already conceded that a team with Messi pressing as much as his athletic ability allows will press... NOT THAT much compared to teams where 10 players pressure all the time.


First of all, I think you are confusing his past with his present.
In the past, yeah, he was able to create out of nothing goals assists breaks and provide a chance with high xG (or finish a chance with low xG)
Can he still do that currently? No way. He thinks he can because he starts attempts that resemble in concept his old 'out - of - nowhere' magic and most of the time end miserably. This season to say the least, but if you examine him in retrospect with open mind you can definitely see declining every year in that ability.

Proven the OPPOSITE according to the points above:
Magic-out-of nowhere: 98% this season absent (new problem), so it's an 'expensive' risk to take for the 2% of the time that he delivers that. Expensive, because it leads to possession loss. So MINUS here
Structural and positional chaos in attack with him (old problem): MINUS
Non-existent pressing (whenever he wants, a few times per game) (old problem): MINUS

I have tree MINUSes already and I am looking in earnest for the PLUS here..

You say u do not want to deny my personality
but you continue to label me as a Messi Fanfoy,
effectively denying me the possibility of not recognizing myself in a definition that brings with it a series of characteristics that make me something that I am not:
thus DENYING my personality

I don't think we can certify the objective correctness of different ideas about football.
You can prove through reasoning and statistics that Messi is performing poorly for his standards, but not that he is a finished player and that Barcelona is better without him.
You can bring elements in favor of your vision, but it always remains an opinion.
Otherwise, if your ideas were so certainly objective, you and the other people you mentioned would not be here writing on a forum but you would be the coaches of a team that wins the Champions League every year.

About the pressing issue, what u wrote is exactly what I wanted to express:
pressing is designed to be implemented in relation to the athletic ability of players who cannot run like crazy all the time
I don't think the reason why Barcelona are doing badly lies in the fact that Messi doesn't press like a 20 year old
In my opinion, he remains an opportunity creator.
Many statistics have been posted about it, but the numbers can be read in many ways depending on how you want to read them to corroborate one hypothesis or another. Depending on how they interact with the context.

For now, numbers tell us of a player who has played 13 games, scored 7 goals and made 4 assists (indirectly creating the circumstances to score at leat 2 more).
So, at leat 13 goals in 13 games are due to him.
Very small numbers for Messi.
Very good numbers for any other player.
And here no one denies that it is his worst season

What really disturbs me here is this strange streak of complacency in trying to corroborate your idea of ​​Messi as a finished player,
which I don't even find in his bitter rivals.
Something that goes way beyond criticism, and which sounds really cringe to me

 

[serghei]

For now, numbers tell us of a player who has played 13 games, scored 7 goals and made 4 assists (indirectly creating the circumstances to score at leat 2 more).
So 13 goals in 13 games are due to him.
Very small numbers for Messi.
Very good numbers for any other player.
And here no one denies that it is his worst season

Come off it .

 

[JerseyAddict]

There is no common ground with some people. They are more interested in winning a point, winning an argument / an agenda than actually conversing. Same can be said for both sides to some degree. The fact is some people like to come here to feel superior and so attack the easy-to-attack posts. They get their release of serotonin and then that's it, job done. I didn't see anyone make a counter to my points about how the match yesterday was nothing to do with how messi played. And yet, pages and pages of new posts are on this thread. Becoming relatively pointless to be part of this community tbh.

Problem of non-personal comunication. It is easy to shit behind the screen and ignore other partys arguments.

Joy of digital comunication.

 

[serghei]

There is no consensus to be had about Messi here, until one of 3 things happen:

- he leaves
- his scoring continues to be shit and then it will be pretty objective he is finished
- he has a great turnaround, recaptures his old form, and becomes decisive again

And even if his bad performances become permanent (no2), there will still be 4-5 super-Messi fans who would deny it. Like Daniele did above.

 

[JohnN]

I was saying hypothetically, that's why I've put biased in brackets.

I know!! I should have used the brackets too. It's a response to another member. I'm tired of all the scapegoating.

 

[Daniele]

Come off it .

about the great argumentative capacity of the " Messi detractors camp"...
Oh well, I've earned the nickname of Messi's Superfan.
Ok, we are in the Barcelona forum, I feel appropriate

 

[serghei]

about the great argumentative capacity of the " Messi detractors camp"...
Oh well, I've earned the nickname of Messi's Superfan.
Ok, we are in the Barcelona forum, I feel appropriate

Maybe you should avoid saying things like Messi's current numbers would be very good for any other player. Guy has 2 non-penalty goals in more than 10 games. Just saying... come back to Earth.

There's some Haaland guy that scores more open play goals in 1 game than Messi has in 10.

 

[Daniele]

Maybe you should avoid saying things like Messi's current numbers would be very good for any other player. Guy has 2 non-penalty goals in more than 10 games. Just saying... come back to Earth.

There's some Haaland guy that scores more open play goals in 1 game than Messi has in 10.

Sorry but I'm talking about human football and not PES football, where only supernatural players count.
The problem is that Messi has made everybody believe for years that what he was doing was extraordinary but in a certain sense normal.
There are no other explanations for the way some people here deal with football. Where either you are superhuman or you are nothing.
It's not my way of seeing things

 

[serghei]

Sorry but I'm talking about human football and not PES football, where only supernatural players count.
The problem is that Messi has made everybody believe for years that what he was doing was extraordinary but in a certain sense normal.
There are no other explanations for the way some people here deal with football. Where either you are superhuman or you are nothing.
It's not my way of seeing things

OK man, if you think he's been good this season, fine by me.

 

[Daniele]

OK man, if you think he's been good this season, fine by me.

it's his worst season.
We all know.
Numbers and performances, if they did not belong to him, would not be so bad.
Come on, I'll close it here.
Cheers.
Visca el Barca!!