Fati_Future_BallonDor
Well-known member
Yeah I just dont udnerstand it.
Lionel Messi - v7
- Thread starter Barcaman
- Start date
Yeah I just dont udnerstand it.
serghei
Senior Member
Most of the replies are from known fanboys with who I have no interest in going into long discussions. What are you disagreeing with me on? You just said above you're not arguing Messi is a good player for us still. Then there's nothing to disagree with in this subject then. Because I'm taking a clear stance on this subject and you are not.
Mitchell1978
Senior Member
Well i would respect it more.
Anderlecht went from a team that competed for titles and did OK in Europe to a club that was run by powerfull player agent's, where the main goal was to survive by buying and selling cheap foreign players.
I could no longer feel any connection to such a club.
Mitchell1978
Senior Member
apparently if you don't blame Messi for everything thats wrong with the team you're living in a bubble, lol
Things are not black or white. Messi can be blamed and so can other players as well. Everyone has a responsibility towards the club and needs to do his part.
Daniele
Member
I will deal with the matter for the last time point by point, to show you how IN MY OPINION your point of view is based on non-objective data and on cognitive biases.
Having said that I am not going to make you change your mind but simply to expose a different point of view (because there is no one in here who holds the absolute truth, otherwise the very idea of forum could not exist)
Let's start from the one objective fact that everyone can share. Messi's statistics show that this season is for now his worst (we consider the statistics over the course of whole seasons, not "the last 9 months, the last 6 months etc")
in my opinion it is not true that he does not commit, indeed I think he does a lot.
How do you know that he dictates these things (can't be rested, can't be subbed)? In case it's Koeman's fault..
What he earns is established by the market, if he earns more than he owes then bravo!
this whole part of your criticism is just plain unfounded: what u call his dictatorial style is just a gauge of whether you are more or less disliked by the player; again, they are not facts
and yes: relying on these concepts to criticize him means to bash him
the performances as we said have deteriorated so far this season, but there is no context in your point here to understand the whole picture.
The team has a new coach, many very young players,
many players who occupy the same role and who do not find their right place on the field, a group of veterans who are no longer in their prime. The whole body of Barcelona is not balanced, and in a team sport it all affects the performance of the individual parts.
Despite of his age Messi is still the best dribbler in tight spaces, the best at making passes, the player with the most technique. I believe that he is the least of the problems of the current Barcelona (in case a point of strength in perspective) and that he has to mentally unblock. (even if, Obviously, the decline will continue with age).
These are my 2 cents, we'll see at the end of the season what will be with the team and Messi.
Fondly, Messi fanboy
Having said that I am not going to make you change your mind but simply to expose a different point of view (because there is no one in here who holds the absolute truth, otherwise the very idea of forum could not exist)
Let's start from the one objective fact that everyone can share. Messi's statistics show that this season is for now his worst (we consider the statistics over the course of whole seasons, not "the last 9 months, the last 6 months etc")
in my opinion it is not true that he does not commit, indeed I think he does a lot.
How do you know that he dictates these things (can't be rested, can't be subbed)? In case it's Koeman's fault..
What he earns is established by the market, if he earns more than he owes then bravo!
this whole part of your criticism is just plain unfounded: what u call his dictatorial style is just a gauge of whether you are more or less disliked by the player; again, they are not facts
and yes: relying on these concepts to criticize him means to bash him
the performances as we said have deteriorated so far this season, but there is no context in your point here to understand the whole picture.
The team has a new coach, many very young players,
many players who occupy the same role and who do not find their right place on the field, a group of veterans who are no longer in their prime. The whole body of Barcelona is not balanced, and in a team sport it all affects the performance of the individual parts.
Despite of his age Messi is still the best dribbler in tight spaces, the best at making passes, the player with the most technique. I believe that he is the least of the problems of the current Barcelona (in case a point of strength in perspective) and that he has to mentally unblock. (even if, Obviously, the decline will continue with age).
These are my 2 cents, we'll see at the end of the season what will be with the team and Messi.
Fondly, Messi fanboy
Last edited:
fergus90
Senior Member
Messi has been pretty average all 2020 to be honest about it but the man is 33 years old and plays twice a week without fail. Unfortunately squad planning with an incompetent imbecile in charge for the last 6 years means there is really no one capable to permanently take the burden of the responsibility and let Messi be a top class deputy at 33, that can afford to miss games and be rested ready for the big ones.
Because in reality, Barca should be steered by players reaching or in their prime, whilst letting Messi enjoy his football in a successful team not having to be the key to unlock everything. Even prime Messi had a world class supporting cast around him but now when he should be playing less, he's relied on more.
Koeman will be no different to other managers about resting him either, so I can quite easily see Messi playing every fixture bar the early Copa del Rey's.
Because in reality, Barca should be steered by players reaching or in their prime, whilst letting Messi enjoy his football in a successful team not having to be the key to unlock everything. Even prime Messi had a world class supporting cast around him but now when he should be playing less, he's relied on more.
Koeman will be no different to other managers about resting him either, so I can quite easily see Messi playing every fixture bar the early Copa del Rey's.
te amo barca
Blaugrana al vent
Is he though? Based on this season? Not even remotely.
Birdy
Senior Member
The definition of 'fanboyism' is that you idolize him without any grip on reality.
You don't see any negative traits (on and off the field), you don't see any difference between his past and his present, and you reduce the latter to the former.
You try to find cheap excuses for him as if you are his mother or something.
And this is beyond the point of having a healthy idol, it's kind of sickening tbf.
And it gives you the answer why people who criticize Messi here repeat the same old stuff. Because none of their points have been properly answered.
What is heard, instead, from the 'Messi fanboy' camp, apart from the excuses about his performances and attitude, are only insults and teenage responses (like us being 'judas', embarrassment of fans for club, i3 venture trolls, mentally ill, etc etc).
If you want nuanced and articulated opinion, you have to first accept what any non-biased observer witnesses week in week out.
Instead of trying to immediately come up with excuses for him, just distance yourself and try to objectively pass a judgment.
I don't see why you have made it so difficult to do so. You act as if it's betrayal to admit it.
Think that all of us (people criticizing Messi here) were also his admirers not so long ago.
But as Luftstalag said above, we are supporters of the club first and foremost, and when the club suffers we will point to all the problems, even if a legend of the club is currently a problem.
Here is an illustrative example of how you don't answer the point repeatedly made by Messi critics.
You say 'in my opinion', without countering any point.
Each opinion here is worth nothing unless backed by argumentation that seeks to be objective.
We have several facts: That he plays every game all minutes unless injured, and that had been the case for many years with many different coaches.
And your answer to that is that it's Koeman's fault. How can it be so? If it was Koeman's problem, it would have occurred only during Koeman's time.
Think for yourself how it's possible with so many different coaches and through so many different periods this fact to remain unchanged?
We have also other evidence (not proof, but strong evidence) about how he is in training and as a professional.
Read Setien's recent interview. It's eye-opening. He says Messi is hard to manage and the club has let be like that for years.
You cannot just bypass and ignore that piece of information if you want to be objective (especially since it provides a clue that answers many situations witnessed). You just can't.
But you won't read it because you think it's not worth, or you categorize it as 'gossip'. But gossip is saying 'i know someone who knows someone who ... claims that Messi is a spoiled kid'. It's not gossip to read anecdotal information coming from someone who has worked with him and seen him day in day out (even for 6 months).
How can we reach common ground if you just dismiss anything that is coming out as negative about Messi??
You don't see any negative traits (on and off the field), you don't see any difference between his past and his present, and you reduce the latter to the former.
You try to find cheap excuses for him as if you are his mother or something.
And this is beyond the point of having a healthy idol, it's kind of sickening tbf.
And it gives you the answer why people who criticize Messi here repeat the same old stuff. Because none of their points have been properly answered.
What is heard, instead, from the 'Messi fanboy' camp, apart from the excuses about his performances and attitude, are only insults and teenage responses (like us being 'judas', embarrassment of fans for club, i3 venture trolls, mentally ill, etc etc).
If you want nuanced and articulated opinion, you have to first accept what any non-biased observer witnesses week in week out.
Instead of trying to immediately come up with excuses for him, just distance yourself and try to objectively pass a judgment.
I don't see why you have made it so difficult to do so. You act as if it's betrayal to admit it.
Think that all of us (people criticizing Messi here) were also his admirers not so long ago.
But as Luftstalag said above, we are supporters of the club first and foremost, and when the club suffers we will point to all the problems, even if a legend of the club is currently a problem.
Here is an illustrative example of how you don't answer the point repeatedly made by Messi critics.
You say 'in my opinion', without countering any point.
Each opinion here is worth nothing unless backed by argumentation that seeks to be objective.
We have several facts: That he plays every game all minutes unless injured, and that had been the case for many years with many different coaches.
And your answer to that is that it's Koeman's fault. How can it be so? If it was Koeman's problem, it would have occurred only during Koeman's time.
Think for yourself how it's possible with so many different coaches and through so many different periods this fact to remain unchanged?
We have also other evidence (not proof, but strong evidence) about how he is in training and as a professional.
Read Setien's recent interview. It's eye-opening. He says Messi is hard to manage and the club has let be like that for years.
You cannot just bypass and ignore that piece of information if you want to be objective (especially since it provides a clue that answers many situations witnessed). You just can't.
But you won't read it because you think it's not worth, or you categorize it as 'gossip'. But gossip is saying 'i know someone who knows someone who ... claims that Messi is a spoiled kid'. It's not gossip to read anecdotal information coming from someone who has worked with him and seen him day in day out (even for 6 months).
How can we reach common ground if you just dismiss anything that is coming out as negative about Messi??
raedkuwait
Senior Member
Amazing skills from messi in the last game
https://youtu.be/7yEz5Zr6_zw
Thats why he can play 90 min every game.
https://youtu.be/7yEz5Zr6_zw
Thats why he can play 90 min every game.
Daniele
Member
ok, you also deserve a point-by-point reply.
I was talking about my opinion because there is no objective measure relating to the commitment of a player (and this statement is objective)
Having said that I do not consider myself a fanboy but an observer absolutely without prejudice, I want to dismantle your illogical arguments and explain to you what the common ground of discussion is.
1) for how football works, it is the manager's responsibility to decide who plays and how much. Not the player himself.
Even if a player has the power to impose himself, the responsibility is of whoever gives him the power.
That Messi was never replaced, even before Koeman, proves nothing. Evidently according to his coaches he deserved to always play. If not, it is always their fault.
2) Setien says it was difficult to handle Messi, Koeman says the opposite. Who cares about the words? The facts on the ground matter.
Everything that is "said" off the pitch for me has nothing to do with the technical and tactical analysis of football. In this sense It is, in fact, gossip.
3) We all agree that this is the player's worst season so far.
I deduce that it is not a strange thing (it is normal to have ups and downs in football, regardless of age-related decline) and that this is not the main problem of Barcelona now.
You think Messi is the major cause of Barcelona problems.
Different points of view: this does not mean that your opinion is more valuable than mine. Period
Last edited:
Messigician
Senior Member
Etc you expect Koeman to say? Yes Messi is hard to manage.
It's obvious for everyone how Messi is
Daniele
Member
"Messi is a very easy player to coach because he also has a great impulse with respect to the team." by Valverde (2020- months after being sacked) https://www.givemesport.com/1564862...t-was-like-to-coach-lionel-messi-at-barcelona
Everyone says his own things, and it's irrelevant! Can we please cut this bullshit once and for all?
Last edited:
Home of Barca Fans
