Ernesto Valverde - V1

[serghei]

When will this clueless manager understand that the only possible way to effectively create chances vs a team that defends deep is by having a lot of movement off the ball? We saw very little of what's needed to move around a stacked defense in order to great gaps between their players.

What is passing the ball between players who more or less barely move is going to accomplish? The opposition barely makes any shifts in their shape if their markers are not moving around. All this mediocre manager can do is somehow hope one of our numerous game winners show up with some bit of magic. Be it Messi, Coutinho, Dembele, or even Suarez. Very very rarely can a team win the CL with this individualistic approach.

 

[Stoichkov1]

When will this clueless manager understand that the only possible way to effectively create chances vs a team that defends deep is by having a lot of movement off the ball? We saw very little of what's needed to move around a stacked defense in order to great gaps between their players.

What is passing the ball between players who more or less barely move is going to accomplish? The opposition barely makes any shifts in their shape if their markers are not moving around. All this mediocre manager can do is somehow hope one of our numerous game winners show up with some bit of magic. Be it Messi, Coutinho, Dembele, or even Suarez. Very very rarely can a team win the CL with this individualistic approach.

The only players who have a terrible off the ball movement are Messi and Suarez.

 

[Devils]

The slow passing, movement game is dangerous and I would have liked him to try to change that up this season. We played faster in the US friendly games so hopefully he employs that more.

My issue with the slow build up game is that against high intensity pressing and aggressive teams i.e. Roma, it leaves the team vulnerable to get overrun.

 

[gasgas]

The only players who have a terrible off the ball movement are Messi and Suarez.

2 is too much already

 

[Leong157]

The only players who have a terrible off the ball movement are Messi and Suarez.

EVERYONE was terrible off the ball. You can walking all you want but if you walking around as a team and smartly that also an off the ball movement. It's down to how you move not how fast or how much you move.

 

[khaled_a_d]

The simple fact is that when Messi drifts centrally/drops deep, our RCM needs to cover RW in that Luchoesque 4-3-3. That results in disjointed midfield play.

I think the way forward now would be to play Messi centrally in 4-3-3, with Dembele/Malcom/Coutinho on the wings and order either Vidal or Rakitić to move up and act as a striker when Messi drops deep.

Messi would still play deep as he has evolved into a playmaker long time ago, it is his comfort zone now and whether he is false 9 or AM/SS he will be playing in same places. And him droppindeep with o striker in front of him takes a lot from his game.
Only way to play 433 effictively with him is with a Henry type of LW, and we don't have that.
Won't mind if we tried it a lot more, but don't held your hopes high when we play with it against tough opponents

 

[xXKonan]

Things start at the top.

If your front line isn't moving, it's hard for the Midfield to function properly. Suarez and Messi's movement is poor as hell and it feels like a log jam when the fullbacks and Midfield are trying to push up and create attacks. You cannot do that very well if like 90 percent of your front line isn't doing much to help then it's not going to work.

Messi is Messi, he was never the most mobile guy out there. But Suarez? he's bloody awful these days. We cannot have two out of our three front players be static it just doesn't work. I'm sorry but Valverde needs to make the call here, we cannot keep playing Suarez and Messi together the way they are right now.

 

[FCBfan22]

Messi would still play deep as he has evolved into a playmaker long time ago, it is his comfort zone now and whether he is false 9 or AM/SS he will be playing in same places. And him droppindeep with o striker in front of him takes a lot from his game.
Only way to play 433 effictively with him is with a Henry type of LW, and we don't have that.
Won't mind if we tried it a lot more, but don't held your hopes high when we play with it against tough opponents

Agree, but my main point is, don't stick him on RW anymore.

 

[soul24rage]

Messi and Dembele switches their position a lot with each other in a 4-2-3-1 from CAM to RW and vice versa which brings the best out of Messi so I think this is the best formation for us as of right now.

 

[serghei]

The simple fact is that when Messi drifts centrally/drops deep, our RCM needs to cover RW in that Luchoesque 4-3-3. That results in disjointed midfield play.

I think the way forward now would be to play Messi centrally in 4-3-3, with Dembele/Malcom/Coutinho on the wings and order either Vidal or Rakitić to move up and act as a striker when Messi drops deep.

It's not that simple. Messi dropping in midfield and the RCM taking the RW spot means Messi needs to perform CM duties if ball is lost, because he will suddenly find himself playing in that area. And he walks, leaving the man he should be blocking to pass right through him. He can't be dropping deep and allow one of our players to push up, because he won't do the job in defensive transition.

So, Messi could only move in and around attacking positions, and not deep position that involve numerous tactical responsibilities in defensive phase. It's simple really, he has liberty to move where he wants and pick his spots in the last third only. That's the correct way to do it. I remember Henry saying Pep wanted them to have clear positions in build-up until the ball was in the final third. Then they started to add the creativity and combinations. Until then, they were pretty disciplined in how they moved and the positions they occupied. Why do you think that happened? Because you need to have a good shape and a good structure.

Now Messi and Suarez do whatever the fuck they want. It's basically their attack. And we look like shit. Midfielders can't even pass the ball because there's no plan for it. No progression. Valverde is pandering to the star players because he is a clueless clown. There a reason why the manager is called a manager. He is supposed to be the one with the vision. Not Suarez or Messi. They are just players.

 

[FCBfan22]

It's not that simple. Messi dropping in midfield and the RCM taking the RW spot means if Messi needs to perform CM duties if ball is lost. And he walks. He can't be dropping deep and allow a player to push up, because he won't do the job in defensive transition.

So, Messi could only move in and around attacking positions, and not deep position that involve numerous tactical responsibility in defensive phase.

My main point is that you destroy the midfield trio compactness with that, but I also agree with your point. Our CM's need to be close together, but if one of them needs to cover on RW, they can't be.

 

[serghei]

My main point is that you destroy the midfield trio compactness with that, but I also agree with your point. Our CM's need to be close together, but if one of them needs to cover on RW, they can't be.

The way I see it, the one going up to occupy Messi's void when he moves around needs to be Semedo. Has the speed and the engine to do it. Problem is the other players. Arthur, Coutinho, they need to have liberty to call plays. They are not fucking water carriers. Attacking players should move to be played. Should not be dropping deep to receive ball to feet in 40m. away from goal.

 

[soul24rage]

The way I see it, the one going up to occupy Messi's void when he moves around needs to be Semedo. Has the speed and the engine to do it. Problem is the other players. Arthur, Coutinho, they need to have liberty to call plays. They are not fucking water carriers. Attacking players should move to be played. Should not be dropping deep to receive ball to feet in 40m. away from goal.

the problem i have with semedo is that while he has the speed and the engine to cover that void, he doesn't have the playmaking skills with the ball to create chances on that right hand side and he usually passes back from the right wing position so basically our right side is void of creativity. It worked with Messi on the RW with Alves as Alves can create chances. Semedo works well when he has someone up on that RW like Dembele who can create chances on his own and Semedo makes good runs off the ball to create space for the likes of Dembele. Until Semedo improves his playmaking skills, I don't think Messi on the RW will work for now.

 

[henias]

People wanted 4-3-3: Done.
People wanted Dembele: Done.

At least give some credit.

It's very simple. Time will tell if this works or not. It's not about being picky or choosy, we have to truly revamp ourselves and not be stuck in that transitional mindset.

I'm happy that Dembele played, but I sense the same type of mindset and tradition of subbing Demeble off when he's the one causing problems for their defence. Constantly sticking with Suarez is a huge problem, especially if we want to defend and break fast into counter attacks.

 

[jairzinho]

We need to find a way to accommodate Messi at the #10 spot without losing shape. That's the biggest problem. He hardly ever plays on the right wing anymore. Those days are done.