Gnidrologist
Senior Member
Only negativity about that is BBZ myth making about "peps style" and how it's "figured out" and sheeit.
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BBZ8800
Senior Member
Don't take it literally that all he does is possession.
Let's say it this way: if we would manually count every action under Van Gaal, Rijkaard and Pep, then we would get something like:
Rijkaard:
60% of actions were shortpassing through the middle
20% crosses
10% long balls
10% long shots out of nowhere/risky dribbles at the edge of a box to create something out of nowhere
With Pep, imo, it is always closer to:
85% shortpassing
10% crosses
2% long balls
2% long shots
1% everything else
Pep has tweaked the balance of actions towards one type of actions and I personally hate that.
This is also why he pushes for short technical playmakers because they are the most suitable for his style of repeating 2-3 patterns till death until the ball somehow gets into the net.
Or, equally, you can count how often had Barca took regular corners before Pep.
And how often we took those Pep's shitty short corners (to avoid crosses and not to lose possession, lol).
About your comment about City being the 3rd in a number of crosses, headers or whatever, I think that you are talking about absolute numbers.
For example, if City creates 20 chances per match, then even with 25% of crosses, they will create 5 chances from crosses per match.
While the 13th placed team who creates 7 chances per match will have 3 crosses.
And now it may seem as City is crossing more than that 13th placed team.
While infact, City had only 25% of crosses while the 13th placed team had 40% of crosses out of their total amount of actions.
I don't even want to dig deeper into City's crosses and Pep playing 6 midgets in midfield and attack.
City crossing is equally as stupid as Barca crossing on Messi.
In short: Pep is playing possession all the time and here and there his players make pointless crosses to midget forwards.
Anyway, Pep has killed a lot of areas of football (crosses, corners, longshots, longballs, risks, dribbles at the edge of a box) and placed all his chips on endless passing, possession and waiting for a perfect moment for a perfect shortpass to kill the opponent.
The funniest thing is, if he'll buy Kane, he'll probably sell him in a year like Etoo, Zlatan or Mandzukic because a pure no9 won't move enough and he'll lose a lot of movement, and domination.
Or he'll quit.
So, let's enjoy the next season in a CL and see how Pep will implode one more time.
A poor guy will need to spend 800m in the next summer because Kane and Grealish (paired with an all star City team) won't be enough.
HOPE 😉
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Birdy
Senior Member
Not a problem if he has killed the parts of the game that are of high-variance, difficult to train/improve/mold into patterns, and of low end product,
like
longballs,
longshots,
unnecessary risks
Think only about long-shots, they have less than 0.1 xG to become a goal. Why waste an attack with that when there are always better options?
We live in the era of sophisticated stats, and not only Pep but all good coaches nowadays instruct their players not to waste shots out of the box that are condemned to contribute nothing and take away an entire possession spell.
The only truth there is to the above criticism, is actually the other way round:
that Pep is not training and automating the last-third actions enough,
Henry and others had said in past interviews that Pep says: "I will show you how to get to outside of the opposition box. From there, it's instinct and individual talent to score"
The last part is against his own philosophy of course, and IMO it's false as well.
One can train, create patterns, and automate every single action of the game.
Perhaps he has revised that idea, as in City we saw the first couple of years an automated pattern of action in the final third, where one of the 8s (Silva, KDB) would make a through ball to an advancing winger (Sane or Sterling) at the right or left (close to, touching, or even inside the box) who would then square a low cross/pass to find either the striker (Kun) or the other winger to slot it home in front of either a keeper unable to react or an empty net.
like
longballs,
longshots,
unnecessary risks
Think only about long-shots, they have less than 0.1 xG to become a goal. Why waste an attack with that when there are always better options?
We live in the era of sophisticated stats, and not only Pep but all good coaches nowadays instruct their players not to waste shots out of the box that are condemned to contribute nothing and take away an entire possession spell.
The only truth there is to the above criticism, is actually the other way round:
that Pep is not training and automating the last-third actions enough,
Henry and others had said in past interviews that Pep says: "I will show you how to get to outside of the opposition box. From there, it's instinct and individual talent to score"
The last part is against his own philosophy of course, and IMO it's false as well.
One can train, create patterns, and automate every single action of the game.
Perhaps he has revised that idea, as in City we saw the first couple of years an automated pattern of action in the final third, where one of the 8s (Silva, KDB) would make a through ball to an advancing winger (Sane or Sterling) at the right or left (close to, touching, or even inside the box) who would then square a low cross/pass to find either the striker (Kun) or the other winger to slot it home in front of either a keeper unable to react or an empty net.
I don't even know what to make of this post.
JamDav1982
Senior Member
BBZ used to claim City dont cross ball.. then was shown they cross ball more than anyone else in league.
BBZ claims City dont shoot from distance... stats show them to be 3rd in league for goals outside box and first the season before while taking most shots.
Just clean makes things up then tries to hide it and bamboozle with another rambling long post with no basis in reality but just his 'ideas' of football and % grabbed from thin air.
BBZ claims City dont shoot from distance... stats show them to be 3rd in league for goals outside box and first the season before while taking most shots.
Just clean makes things up then tries to hide it and bamboozle with another rambling long post with no basis in reality but just his 'ideas' of football and % grabbed from thin air.
BBZ8800
Senior Member
About the first part, Pep is not an idiot.
Shortpassing and low risk game brings higher % of success than wild/risky/crazy crossing, long balls, long ranged drives.
But but but...
No matter how dumb long ranged drives are, they bring an element of surprise and unpredictability.
Remember Ronaldinho's goal against Chelsea in 2005?
Imo, that would never happen under current Pep.
His players lately play: don't shoot from there => pass it to a winger, he will dribble past his marker => and then he will square it in the middle => where someone will have an easy tap in (instead of trying Ronaldinhos's shot from 18 meters).
Or go back to 2005 or 2006 and look at Deco's somewhat stupid longranged efforts which often resulted in lucky goals and ricochets.
Now, if you play it safe and logical all the time, after some time the opponents realize that you won't risk and they figure out your patterns.
Look, WBA or West Ham are not good enough to neutralize Pep's patterns.
But against Chelsea in a CL final, City more or less had zero shots, right?
Why?
Because anyone with something in their heads already figured out where Pep's players will pass with 90% of certainty.
And this is where SOME unpredictabilty could help.
Instead of always playing safe, logical and in the same way, it would be better for KDB, Sterling or Grealish to take the ball at 30m, do something like Messi or Neymar and try to dribble past 4 and make a sruprising move.
Or when their wingers have the ball, they should be selfish from time to time and try an illogical shot like Belletti in 2006 where he scored a somewhat stupid goal.
Why City isn't scoring stupid goals in CL KO matches?
Because they aren't trying stupid/uillogical/lucky things.
They always go safe/logical route.
Look, I didn't invent this theory.
More or less, word by word what I said above, was said by Prosinecki (a former Croatian footballer, now a coach, who played both for Barcelona and Real madrid in the 90s).
He played under Cruijff in 1995/96 season, so he also knows something about Total football, but also about magic/an element of surprise because he achieved big teams with outsiders teams as a player, like winning a CL with Red Star Belgrade (ex Yugoslavia) in 1991 and winning the 3rd place on a WC 1998 with Croatia.
He said the same about the current Spanish team on Euros: they play too safe. Everyone knows what they will do and where they'll pass. They have good players but they lack some unpredictable moves, dribbles, crazy shots, some braver attempts (like Ronaldinho and similar players who pull some magic out of nowhere).
Also, you could see a relation that both Spain and Pep's City play without magicians/unpredictable players.
All of their players are super smart and super logical players.
There is no nonsense with them.
But there is also no magic and no surprising moves.
This is why I said that Pep's football lately is somewhat robotic and too logical.
Btw, Pep at Barca wasn't like that.
He had Xavi, Iniesta and Messi who were magicians.
So, his robotic football had a cherry on the cake in Messi, Xavi and Iniesta who had that unpredictability and genious touch.
But whne you remove Xavi, Iniesta and Messi from Pep's football = you get a weaker, washed out version of Barca's football.
And something is always missing, isn't it?
You watch City in a CL, and they remind of Barca, but something is missing.
But if you add prime Xavi, Iniesta and crazy Messi dribbling through 4 players = that's it. City is winning it.
Yet, on the other hand, it seems as if Pep is deliberately trying not to buy magicians.
Bernardo, Sterling, Mahrez, KDB are magicians, but "tamed" magicians.
They are not Rivaldo, Ronaldinho, Messi, Neymar.
All in all, I hate what Pep is doing with his robotic football and killing all aspects of football with putting all chips on shortpassing and 2-3 attacking patterns.
Also, for years, there is no plan B in Pep's game.
He always had only one way of playing = Plan A.
1. if it is working = fine
2. if it is not working = repeat it for 100 times over and over and hope that it will work 1 time, lol
Now please, look at the goals from 2004-05 under Rijkaard, before Pep.
Look at our attacking patterns and finishing:
1. a lof of long balls from deep = not too often under Pep, because it is risky and you can lose the ball
2. regular corners and headers = not too often under Pep, because you will lose the ball, lol
3. a lot of illogical long range attempts even though a shooter could have passed the ball to a teammate and wait for a better moment too shoot = not too often under Pep
4. look at crosses. Do Pep's player ever cross from deep, from 30m from the corner line (like Beckham)? No. Pep's wingers cross when they reach touchline and then they send a low cross or a pass into the middle.
These are just some examples.
Now try to watch this video and imagine that City is playing.
In 80% of these goals, Pep's City would slow down, wouldn't shoot, they would pass the ball BACK in the middle etc.
That is what I hate about his football.
BBZ8800
Senior Member
Have you read my previous post?
City 3rd in the league from outside of a box, lol.
They had like 500 shots in a season compared to other teams who had 150-200 shots.
Of course that they will be on top in terms of absolute numbers.
That's like saying how Lautaro with 200 shots and 15 goals is a more clinical finisher than 99% of European strikers.
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Messigician
Senior Member
True tbh
In that scenario no one would say, x striker is one of the most clinical strikers, they would simply state the fact that he scored 15 goals in X seasons.
That's a fact, not a stat.
Much in the same way it's a Fact City had the 3rd most shots outside the box in the EPL.
Facts ve stats, we can play with stats to make them look anyway we like (to make a non-sensical point is a great example) but facts are the other hand are just that, you can't change them, they stand firm under all circumstances).
That's a fact, not a stat.
Much in the same way it's a Fact City had the 3rd most shots outside the box in the EPL.
Facts ve stats, we can play with stats to make them look anyway we like (to make a non-sensical point is a great example) but facts are the other hand are just that, you can't change them, they stand firm under all circumstances).
Bobo32
Senior Member
https://twitter.com/barcacentre/status/1422617910879703045
Interesting. I guess no role is available in a little while, as Koeman got to continue and the B coach is new. But it's nice to see him there!
Interesting. I guess no role is available in a little while, as Koeman got to continue and the B coach is new. But it's nice to see him there!
BBZ8800
Senior Member
I had to watch Man Shitty for 25 minutes to check whether I am crazy or what.
These are all EPL goals from 2020 from Shitty.
All the goals are scored in the same way:
1. TikiTaka-shortpassing through the middle
2. TikiTaka-through ball through the middle
3. a winger running towards a touchline and then passing it back into the middle of the box where 2-3-4-5 midfielders are attacking the box and someone will score a simple tap-in
4. KDB having the ball on a wing, putting a low cross to the far post and someone having an easy tap-in
More or less that's it.
Outside of that, iirc, 5 goals were scored outside of a box, but not from crazy distances but from 16-20 meters.
And majority of those goals were Messi-like goals from the centre of the edge of a box (so = logical long range drives). As expected, City isn't trying crazy-nonsense shots.
Also, out of all these goals, only in 2-3 of them, Sterling was somewhat selfish and dribbled in the moment when he could have passes.
in 95% of goals, City players are good-guys who will always pass to a teammate instead of shooting.
Also, in the whole year there were only 3 header goals (lol).
I guess when some posters posted stats about City being the 3rd or whatever, a guy who made those stats probably counted:
1. free kick goals as goals outside of a box (which they are. But I am talking about regular, unexpected long range drives from an open play, not about free kicks)
2. about headers, a stat guy probably counted corners+headers (and goals) as header goals. But again, I am talking about crosses and headers from an open play which happened only 3 times in 2020.
So, all in all: as expected. The same old Pep without Messi-Xavi-Iniesta.
Playing a logical-robotic-mathematical football where he is always picking an option that has the highest percentage for a success.
To some extent, that is awesome because it will work to some extent, especially against low-table and mid-table league teams who will conceded a goal in this or that way after 20 shots.
But as seen 100s of times till now, when Pep faces big boys in a CL, he can't create 20 shots but only 2-5 shots per match and then his actions are quite predictable, bug teams know how to defend against them.
Add to this his team without true magicians, without leaders, without fighters, a team filled with very smart choirboys and you get a team:
1. who is a machine against lowtable teams
2. and who is predictable, sterile and mentally fragile when they face big teams in KO matches
Good old Pep. Predictable.
He needs some individual magic, some unpredictable moves, leaders, a fighting spirit and more attacking patterns than just TikiTaka through the middle/through ball to a winger and passing it back to a middle where 5 players are attacking the box.
A video of all City's EPL goals from 2020.
But be careful, imo, goals/video is quite boring, repetitive and predictable.
Probably any 16th placed league team is scoring more variety of goals over 365 goals. They score less though, but everyone have more attacking patterns and options than Pep.
This is how I see City's repetitive attacking patterns.
11 cloned robots playing football, and each of 11 players playing exactly in the same way and always doing exactly the same thing without any personality or variety:
These are all EPL goals from 2020 from Shitty.
All the goals are scored in the same way:
1. TikiTaka-shortpassing through the middle
2. TikiTaka-through ball through the middle
3. a winger running towards a touchline and then passing it back into the middle of the box where 2-3-4-5 midfielders are attacking the box and someone will score a simple tap-in
4. KDB having the ball on a wing, putting a low cross to the far post and someone having an easy tap-in
More or less that's it.
Outside of that, iirc, 5 goals were scored outside of a box, but not from crazy distances but from 16-20 meters.
And majority of those goals were Messi-like goals from the centre of the edge of a box (so = logical long range drives). As expected, City isn't trying crazy-nonsense shots.
Also, out of all these goals, only in 2-3 of them, Sterling was somewhat selfish and dribbled in the moment when he could have passes.
in 95% of goals, City players are good-guys who will always pass to a teammate instead of shooting.
Also, in the whole year there were only 3 header goals (lol).
I guess when some posters posted stats about City being the 3rd or whatever, a guy who made those stats probably counted:
1. free kick goals as goals outside of a box (which they are. But I am talking about regular, unexpected long range drives from an open play, not about free kicks)
2. about headers, a stat guy probably counted corners+headers (and goals) as header goals. But again, I am talking about crosses and headers from an open play which happened only 3 times in 2020.
So, all in all: as expected. The same old Pep without Messi-Xavi-Iniesta.
Playing a logical-robotic-mathematical football where he is always picking an option that has the highest percentage for a success.
To some extent, that is awesome because it will work to some extent, especially against low-table and mid-table league teams who will conceded a goal in this or that way after 20 shots.
But as seen 100s of times till now, when Pep faces big boys in a CL, he can't create 20 shots but only 2-5 shots per match and then his actions are quite predictable, bug teams know how to defend against them.
Add to this his team without true magicians, without leaders, without fighters, a team filled with very smart choirboys and you get a team:
1. who is a machine against lowtable teams
2. and who is predictable, sterile and mentally fragile when they face big teams in KO matches
Good old Pep. Predictable.
He needs some individual magic, some unpredictable moves, leaders, a fighting spirit and more attacking patterns than just TikiTaka through the middle/through ball to a winger and passing it back to a middle where 5 players are attacking the box.
A video of all City's EPL goals from 2020.
But be careful, imo, goals/video is quite boring, repetitive and predictable.
Probably any 16th placed league team is scoring more variety of goals over 365 goals. They score less though, but everyone have more attacking patterns and options than Pep.
This is how I see City's repetitive attacking patterns.
11 cloned robots playing football, and each of 11 players playing exactly in the same way and always doing exactly the same thing without any personality or variety:
te amo barca
Blaugrana al vent
Should get rid of Roberto, Pique, Busi and Alba, and Xavi can come then.
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