Hans-Dieter Flick

Hansi Flick - how do we rate him?


  • Total voters
    133

jamrock

Senior Member
What's going in the the Führer trend?.

Are we talking about English teams winning the EL so now it's a sign of the strength in depth of the league?

But when they use to lose regularly, it was because "they don't take it seriously" and not a sign of the talent and competitiveness of Spanish teams?
 

JamDav1982

Senior Member
Fake news.

But yes the EL became more appealing for English teams when meant a CL space.

Bit like Conference.. nice to be in and if go far with back ups will try to win it for most part.

Not so good for La liga teams now who wont drop out of CL Groups into Europa though.

La Liga teams need to pull the finger out though. Slipping to 3rd behind Italy in rankings is an embarrasement.
 
Last edited:

serghei

Senior Member
It's fair argument EPL is more likely to produce a surprise winner than La Liga. But then EPL don't have the big guns of La Liga. It's completely logical to have more chances of a surprise winner when the top teams are not boogeyman sides. Don't tell me Liverpool who spent 30+ years without a league title is at the level or Barcelona and Madrid.

The moment Liverpool and City reached a new level, they made the league a two way fight. Problem is English teams can't hold domination. They fall off badly. Liverpool 30 years without a title, United 12 and counting. When those are the biggest clubs in the league of course you have more chances of surprising winners.
 

Maradona37

Well-known member
It's fair argument EPL is more likely to produce a surprise winner than La Liga. But then EPL don't have the big guns of La Liga. It's completely logical to have more chances of a surprise winner when the top teams are not boogeyman sides. Don't tell me Liverpool who spent 30+ years without a league title is at the level or Barcelona and Madrid.

The moment Liverpool and City reached a new level, they made the league a two way fight. Problem is English teams can't hold domination. They fall off badly. Liverpool 30 years without a title, United 12 and counting. When those are the biggest clubs in the league of course you have more chances of surprising winners.
Jam is right that PL is in general more competitive, and that the Clasico sides dominate La Liga to a greater extent than Man United, Liverpool or Man City do in England (in general). But that's most because of a stronger midtable.

However, that is in large part due to the behemoths those two Spanish clubs are, as you allude to. We can debate if it is right that they're so powerful in Spain, but it's a fact that they are. La Liga had a lot of quality teams in 2010s and Barca and Real (and to a lesser extent Atletico) ruled the roost then too.

And as you have said a few times, Liverpool and Man City have dominated generally since about 2017-2018. Nobody really got close to them and City just won four in a row. Arsenal have come into the picture in the last few seasons, but I don't think it's a coincidence that their rise is coinciding roughly with City's decline from amazing all-conquering team to top team with flaws. It's not like Arsenal or Chelsea could compete when Liverpool and City were at their peak under Klopp and Guardiola, in the same way teams couldn't compete with Pep/Enrique's Barca or Ancelotti and Zidane's Real Madrid.
 

JamDav1982

Senior Member
It's fair argument EPL is more likely to produce a surprise winner than La Liga. But then EPL don't have the big guns of La Liga. It's completely logical to have more chances of a surprise winner when the top teams are not boogeyman sides. Don't tell me Liverpool who spent 30+ years without a league title is at the level or Barcelona and Madrid.

The moment Liverpool and City reached a new level, they made the league a two way fight. Problem is English teams can't hold domination. They fall off badly. Liverpool 30 years without a title, United 12 and counting. When those are the biggest clubs in the league of course you have more chances of surprising winners.

Liverpool and City were with Real the best 3 teams in Europe for majority of that time.

It is without doubt easier to lose way in EPL than La Liga as said Barca and Real can have a big drop off and finish 2nd and there is not the money or other teams in league that can compete much even in those down seasons.

It has not always been a two way fight that is just plain lies.

City were 3rd last season and 2 points ahead of Chelsea in 4th.

Liverpool the season before were 3rd and the season before that 5th.

There has not been a top two of City and Liverpool in previous 3 seasons.
 
Last edited:

serghei

Senior Member
Liverpool and City were with Real the best 3 teams in Europe for majority of that time.

It is without doubt easier to lose way in EPL than La Liga as said Barca and Real can have a big drop off and finish 2nd and there is not the money or other teams in league that can compete much even in those down seasons.

True, but Liverpool and City dominated EPL at the time. That is the point, whenever 1 or 2 sides get good enough, they leave the rest behind, EPL or La Liga it doesn't matter much. For a super side beating likes of Tottenham is not much different than beating Villareal.

You don't really have balance or unpredictability except when big sides are fucking up. Like City now.
 

Maradona37

Well-known member
In last 10 years there has been x4 different EPL winners and City/Liverpool have finished in the top two x3.

Not quite way is made out.
One was the Leicester fluke that's a severe outlier. The other was Chelsea. Also, you know what you are doing as those were 9 and 10 seasons ago lol. Last 8 seasons only been City and Pool wins, mostly City.

As for teams finishing above them, it can happen. No different to Atletico winning the league in 2021 or when they would finish above Real from time to time. Outliers do happen. Liverpool or City might have finished outside the top two from time to time, but it was temporary and they were still the better teams, and normal service was always resumed.

I don't even disagree with you that PL is the better league at the moment. But the PL really isn't much more competitive than La Liga at top of league. I do agree though that if Barca or RM underperform it's much less likely they'll drop out top two than if City or Liverpool underperform - because of a stronger supporting cast of teams in general. But the overall point is even that supporting cast pales in comparison in most seasons.
 

Maradona37

Well-known member
Last 10 years x4 EPL and x3 La Liga.

Simple facts while City and Liverpool been the top 2 less than Barca/Real by far.
Yeah but you are cutting it off at the very start of that run. As @Horatio said recently, these things are often only counted from where it suits the person's argument. If moved to 8 years it is City and Pool. And it's likely to only be City and Pool over next two years too, so your facts will then be out of date.

The more pertinent point is that Atletico won the 2021 Liga, which is far more recent than anyone outside of the City/Pool duopoly in English football.

And, again, you're deliberately ignoring the context I added for finishing outside top two. It's not a sign, the same way Atletico winning La Liga wasn't a sign. It was just an outlier.
 

serghei

Senior Member
EPL is a stronger league because Barca and Madrid would have a lower win rate in EPL than in La Liga. But EPL teams would also have it worse by having Barca and Madrid in that league. These teams would almost never disappear from the top 3-4.
 

JamDav1982

Senior Member
EPL is a stronger league because Barca and Madrid would have a lower win rate in EPL than in La Liga. But EPL teams would also have it worse by having Barca and Madrid in that league. These teams would almost never disappear from the top 3-4.

Sometimes EPL teams would have it worse.

If comparing who finished top 2 I dont think when comparing likes of Arsenal to Real last season that Arsenal or Liverpool have it worse with Real there on team level or Barca the season before.

How do we judge if say Arsenal are better than Barca this coming season?
 

Maradona37

Well-known member
Sometimes EPL teams would have it worse.

I dont think when comparing likes of Arsenal to Real last season that Arsenal or Liverpool have it worse with Real there on team level or Barca the season before.

How do we judge if say Arsenal are better than Barca this coming season?
Yeah but you're taking Arsenal at their highest point in many years, and Barca and Real at their relative lowest. You cannot really think like that.
 

Home of Barca Fans

Top