Ernesto Valverde - V1

[Joan]

How pacy is Vidal nowadays?

 

[DonAK]

How pacy is Vidal nowadays?

More than Busquets and Rakitic, I can assure you that.

 

[soul24rage]

^ One of Busquets or Rakitic need to make way for Vidal in a 4-2-3-1. We'll need his pace and energy in the midfield otherwise it'll be too slow.

I think vidal could be very useful for either busi or rakitic in a 4231 but i would wait to see how he does in that system first. if he does better than either busi or rakitic then lets put him in. but as of right now, i would put busi and rakitic as our double pivot if we were to face a CL team today.

 

[BBZ8800]

Agreed. Only one of Busi/Raki should play in a two man midfield. The second player should be Arthur/Vidal.

Busi=Rakitic=Arthur=are equally as slow.

Why would you drop one of Rakitic/Busquets to add Arthur?

What are you getting with Arthur instead of Rakitic/Busquets, especially if you want to speed up our play?
If you are leading 2:0, Arthur-Busi is perfect then for keeping the ball around the center of a pitch.

 

[DonAK]

The problem have never been physicality or not.

Our problem since Pep left apart from half of 2014-15 and 2015-16 is the lack of pressing and movement from EVERY player. I see teams such as Liverpool and Man City and even Real Madrid much better in that regard while our players for the most part stand still and wait for the ball to get to them.

 

[Joan]

Busi=Rakitic=Arthur=are equally as slow.

Why would you drop one of Rakitic/Busquets to add Arthur?

What are you getting with Arthur instead of Rakitic/Busquets, especially if you want to speed up our play?
If you are leading 2:0, Arthur-Busi is perfect then for keeping the ball around the center of a pitch.

It's not only about sheer pace. It's also mobility that matters. Arthur is a mobile player and not as slow as you make it out.

Too early to say if he can come close to Raki/Busq (doubt it), but he's a different player.

 

[DonAK]

If Pep was our manager some of the players in the squad would not be playing for Barcelona right now, and I bet Pique and Suarez would be among the players replaced.

The guy would never accept their level and lethargic nature they've displayed the last 12-18 months. Either that or both these guys would be on their heels and fitter than ever and more focused.

The guy turned Aguero from a lazy striker dribbling with his head down to someone that runs and presses all the time in his late 20s and looks to pass more.

You only need to look at this and the difference in Aguero and the way he plays now.

 

[BBZ8800]

Anyway, if we'll want to be realistic, you will guys lose less nerves if you will accept that:

1. Suarez won't be benched
2. Messi won't be benched
3. Busquets won't be benched

Lucho couldn't bench any one MSN, Busquets or Iniesta, and yet Lucho was a tough guy.

That means:
1. if we'll play 433:
2 spots in midfield for: Busquets and Rakitic
2 spots in attack for: Suarez and Messi

2. if we'll play 442 with 3 or 4 TRUE Cms:
2 spots in midfield for: Busquets and Rakitic
2 spots in attack for: Suarez and Messi

3. if we'll play 4231:
2 spots in midfield for: Busquets and Rakitic
2 spots in attack for: Suarez and Messi

So, guys, when you write formations like: 433 with Dembele-Messi-Malcom.
Or 442 with Coutinho-Busi-Arthur-Dembele, please be realistic.

At Barca, usually core players can't be benched.

So, again, you will save a lot of nerves if you accept that: Messi, Suarez and Busquets will 99% surely play in all formations.
And Rakitic is 90% safe in all formations.
Then you can try to squeeze Coutinho, Dembele in some other spots.
And squad guys like Vidal, Arthur etc.

 

[vlad]

Again common sense from BBZ


Are there really barca fans who believe this barca can play similar to pep's barca? Dont be deluded, arthur will never be xavi, and messi will not gonna be 25 again, hard workers like pedro was or villa in attack, there is none, stacking squad with skillfull players who likes recieve the ball and then go for a dribble, nobody make those runs, exploiting space, and you get this, slow boring possession football.


Its 2018, pep left 2012, time to move on, every player that comes to barca is compared to players during that great generation, every coach has to be similar to pep, lucho was on right track to build something new, but didnt work outin his last season, im not saying ditch possession based football but add something new, otherwise barca will crash out every year from CL like until now.

 

[Icarium]

Why would anyone bench Messi anyway. He is still the best player in the world. valverde needs to leave asap if he is not benching Suarez. Just to make him motivating at least, if he keeps starting he won't even try to improve.

 

[Joan]

Barca's stacked with players who're craving to have the ball at their feet. We're one-dimensional. Semedo makes runs but has shown no end product so far, Alba's being Alba... Malcom and Dembele are much-needed additions to the lineup.

 

[messi2140]

If the manager doesn't have the balls to bench the players that deserve to be benched and he can't tell the senior players to run and be more dynamic (especially Suarez) , then whats the point of having him here ?

I have been thinking yesterday , the lineup that Barca had yesterday at the end , the one with the Arturo-Raki-Busi-Cou midfield , I have a feeling we will see that midfield a few more times , especially in the big games

 

[serghei]

Off-ball movement is definitely a problem in itself, but it's very much connected to another aspect of our general expression out there, which is that in our short passing game, we play completely without courage (to recapitulate Guardiola's point in that clip from City's dressing room).

First and foremost, off-the ball movement is an issue if you're not available. There are so many moments where we have players, who albeit still-standing, actually are available to receive a short progessive pass. But because the pass is a little bit risky or because it will put the player under a bit of pressure, we opt for the safe option. Falling into this mindset has sort of a self-sustaining effect to it.

Very rarely so. It's not generally true that we have many moments when pass is available but we lack players to make it. Basically, it's not great service that we're lacking. What we're lacking is teammate access. A player like Arthur or Semedo carrying the ball simply does not have viable passing options because we have some grade A lazy players who just stopped giving any shit when there is an opponent willing to dig very deep and give extra effort. Every time the other team ups the intensity, some of our senior players just go missing in a shameful way. Main culprits are Suarez, Messi, and Busi.

Because we so rarely play the ballsy short passes, players don't bother moving for them. Even worse, players aren't even on their toes ready to receive it. When we do play it and the player who receives it is put under immediate pressure, the movement around him happens way too late because everyone were expecting the safe pass.

In coherent teams, this subsequent movement from the 3rd person happens proactively and constantly. It's what makes the game flow when you watch teams like City. Ideally, when you receive the ball under pressure, you should already know your next move so you can execute it quickly before losing possession. This necessitates that your teammates anticipate the pass and move proactively.

We rarely play ballsy short passes because there is no movement to make those passes consistently manageable. Again, player quality is a non-issue. Best squad in the world probably atm. The big issue is not that we lack ballsy players to make those passes. It's that the attacking players have way too much freedom to do basically whatever they want. Messi and Suarez have too much freedom and Valverde is a total spineless clown for accepting their chaotic movement.

We rarely play the ballsy short pass -> nobody anticipates that we play the ballsy short pass -> nobody is bothered to be ready to receive the ballsy short pass -> nobody is ready to make proactive 3rd player runs to relieve pressure -> if we do make the ballsy short pass, we lose possession -> we stop playing the ballsy short pass

What are ballsy short passes? You mean passes that have maybe a 50-50 success rate? Those are ballsy passes? We are not equipped to deal with fast counters that might come from all of those failed passes. You're basically talking about the EPL style here. EPL teams have almost no risk-management tactics. Everything is ballsy as you say it. The solution is not to play ballsy passes. The solution is to move off the ball and make those passes look not that ballsy anymore.

The moment where it's most obvious that we suffer under this phenomenon is when we finally break it. This happens most frequently when Messi is on the ball. Suddenly we see the effect of the surrounding players actually anticipating the ballsy short pass. Because we know that Messi plays it. Suddenly we move. Suddenly paths open up, Messi slices the line, and boom, one or two other players have made 3rd man runs and are ready to link-up with the recipient. We need to have this mindset not only when Messi is on the ball, but all the fucking time.

Agree here. But then this is probably what is wanted. Or else, why would you allow Messi to drop deep and do that? It's obvious that when Messi drops deep he is passed to no matter what.


About your theory that there are passes that are available but somehow we lack courage, here is a full action build-up from the back up until the ball is lost. Now look at this and tell me if we're lacking ballsy passes or we're simply lacking support for the man on the ball.

Photo 1)

Pique has the ball and plays a simple, usual pass, to Semedo.

Photo2)

Semedo receives and goes forward a bit, trying to figure out what to do. He is not pressed initially.

Photo3)

There is a great pass option available down the line. But Messi and Suarez don't care. They aren't even facing the game. They walk. Messi in particular is walking with his face down as per the image.

It is especially interesting how easy it is to mark Messi. Here he is marked with 2 players, and only 1 player does tight marking. Another player just stands between the ball and Messi, basically hiding Messi from Semedo's vision with his cover shadow.

Players can mark Messi this way and still press the ball carrier. Basically it's a two man job that, if done right, has very very high chances of blocking Messi. Just watch him and stay in front of him. He will not move very fast, so it is not very hard to track his movement and place yourself in front of him. Very rarely will he move left and right to get out of this situation. If he, for some reason, does move, have another player nearby who can intervene.

Semedo sees he has no option and passes the ball to Arthur. Other option would've been to bomb the flank on his own dribbling 2-3 Sevilla players with ease. But this, sadly, isn't FIFA on semipro level.



Photo 4)

Arthur receives and does the same thing as Semedo. Looks up to see who can he play with. Now if someone could explain me, what pass is there in picture no4 and Arthur doesn't use it? Messi and Suarez are still not showing any intent in participating. Messi is even with his back to the ball carrier.

Ball is, logically, played to the open man, Alba.


Photo 5)

Here Alba doesn't see, or he is instructed not to be adventurous, that his marker has gone towards Coutinho too soon, basically allowing Alba to drift inside if possible. But Messi and Suarez are still not moving to help anyone.

Photo 6)

Now ball is very much isolated with Coutinho on the left sideline. At this point, even if they want in on the action Messi and Suarez can't participate. This allows Sevilla to lay off the marking on them and crowd the left side.

Photo 7)

Sevilla closes that zone, ball is played back in midfield, where Messi goes way back to receive the ball and try some fancy lofted ball which against serious teams has never worked in years.

 

[George_Costanza]

^^^

 

[jairzinho]

Good post [MENTION=15262]serghei[/MENTION]

I konw it’s only the first game, but the lack of movement up front is ridiculous. It will be easy for any half decent team to stifle us. You can have prime Xavi and Iniesta in midfield but if players aren’t moving and running into spaces, what good is a Xavi/ Iniesta / Pirlo then? The only option would be sideways and backwards passes. Basically if nothing is happening in front of them what are they suppose to do?. If we’re going to play more vertical we need to be more dynamic and that involves movement and runs off the ball.