Xavi Hernández

[FlaFCB]

You don't have to play at Xavi or Iniesta's level to not suck. There are other good midfielders who play for other teams...

I agree that Lucho is probably the main problem we have, I don't get this argument about how Gomes and co. can't be held responsible because they are not Xaviesta..

Oh, that's not the argument. It's that Xavi and Iniesta weren't good at 23 either. Which is a lie to try to make a point about them. I even agree they will need time to improve, but saying lies like that is just wrong.

 

[serghei]

Oh, that's not the argument. It's that Xavi and Iniesta weren't good at 23 either. Which is a lie to try to make a point about them. I even agree they will need time to improve, but saying lies like that is just wrong.

No. It's that Xavi and Iniesta weren't world class at 23. That margin from good to world class makes all the difference.

 

[FlaFCB]

I thought he was injured in the Champions League that season? He barely played, right? Spanish supercups aren't even worth mentioning when talking about trophies that really matter. He won the Euro well after 24 years old, when you said he was still world class.

I said Xavi wasn't as good when he was 23 compared to his best years under Pep, and I always stick by that. That was the original subject. And you reply he was always world class, trying to imply he actually was the same player from under Guardiola, when he was 22-23 as well. I said he wasn't world class for me, because he lacked some of the things that for me matter when saying somebody is world class.

This is what you said:

People compare Gomes with prime Xavi in their head and somehow they arrive to the conclusion that he is a shit player. It's incredible. They don't even compare him with 23-24 years old Xavi, who had problems as well.

And this is a lie. I wonder which problems were that, as he was already a starter, helping the team a lot. Xavi at 23 was infinitely superior to Gomes. I wish Gomes was half as good as Xavi already was. In 2003 Xavi was doing what he kept doing until pep arrive, and that he kept doing after pep left as well.

No. It's that Xavi and Iniesta weren't world class at 23. That margin from good to world class makes all the difference.

That's what you don't seem to understand. Xavi and Iniesta are in top 5 midfielders of all time. They were wc when young, and beyond that in their peaks. They're special players, not the average denis/rafinha/gomes.

 

[serghei]

This is what you said:



And this is a lie. I wonder which problems were that, as he was already a starter, helping the team a lot. Xavi at 23 was infinitely superior to Gomes. I wish Gomes was half as good as Xavi already was. In 2003 Xavi was doing what he kept doing until pep arrive, and that he kept doing after pep left as well.

No, it's not a lie. Younger Xavi had some problems compared with prime Xavi. It's logical. Players evolve believe it or not, especially a player like Xavi, who, as I said, had a game not based on phyisicality, but intelligence. The more mature he become, the more refined and intelligent he got. In the younger days he wasn't the midfield maestro he was later on.

 

[FlaFCB]

No, it's not a lie. Younger Xavi had some problems compared with prime Xavi. It's logical.

Yes, it is a lie. A blatant one. You didn't even watch Barça back then, that much is clear. Your "logic" is pure fallacy. Xavi's problems were gaspart.

 

[serghei]

Yes, it is a lie. A blatant one. You didn't even watch Barça back then, that much is clear. Your "logic" is pure fallacy. Xavi's problems were gaspart.

OK. I'm done. I stand by what I said. Think what you like, from whatever angle you want.

 

[FlaFCB]

OK. I'm done. I stand by what I said. Think what you like, from whatever angle you want.

No, it's not a lie. Younger Xavi had some problems compared with prime Xavi. It's logical. Players evolve believe it or not, especially a player like Xavi, who, as I said, had a game not based on phyisicality, but intelligence. The more mature he become, the more refined and intelligent he got. In the younger days he wasn't the midfield maestro he was later on.

Yes, it is. If any of our midfielders were anything like 23 year-old Xavi, many problems would be solved. Xavi surely got better with experience, but his abilities were all there already. He was already a very intelligent player.

You keep belittling Xavi to make a case for denis, gomes and rafinha, but you have nothing. Adding to the fact you clearly didn't watch Xavi during 2000-onwards, make it even more ridiculous. I'm still waiting for the "problems" Xavi had when he was younger. He was mr consistency from early on. It's amazing how people forget, or worse, make up stories to try to make a point.

 

[serghei]

Yes, it is. If any of our midfielders were anything like 23 year-old Xavi, many problems would be solved. Xavi surely got better with experience, but his abilities were all there already. He was already a very intelligent player.

You keep belittling Xavi to make a case for denis, gomes and rafinha, but you have nothing. Adding to the fact you clearly didn't watch Xavi during 2000-onwards, make it even more ridiculous. I'm still waiting for the "problems" Xavi had when he was younger. He was mr consistency from early on. It's amazing how people forget, or worse, make up stories to try to make a point.

Talent and abilities are not enough for a player to be called world class. You have to use those abilities and deliver great performances at the highest level. Xavi didn't do that at 23-24, so for me he was not world class, based on a lack of top performances at the highest level. You can't say about a player that he is world class, and yet he doesn't even play for his national team, in the very games that are supposed to give shape to the expression "world class". "World" - as in the biggest stage, in the biggest games.

Fact remains that Xavi at 22 and 6 months was a substitute player at World Cup 2002, and Xavi at 24 played was again a substitute (with zero minutes) at Euro 2004. This is not what you'd expect from a world class player. To not be playing at two of the most important tournaments around the age he was supposedly world class. Had Guardiola not arrived in 2008-09 and changed the negative path of the team, few people would've said Xavi was a top 5 midfielders ever based on what he has shown at 23-24. Maybe Xavi would've indeed been sold and he would've struggled at Bayern or wherever he went.

But it was my mistake that I opened this subject here, a place that is very sensible to any kind of dicussion that tries to imply Messi doesn't carry teams on his own, or Xavi wasn't born world class.

 

[FlaFCB]

Talent and abilities are not enough for a player to be called world class. You have to use those abilities and deliver great performances at the highest level. Xavi didn't do that at 23-24, so for me he was not world class, based on a lack of top performances at the highest level. You can't say about a player that he is world class, and yet he doesn't even play for his national team, in the very games that are supposed to give shape to the expression "world class". "World" - as in the biggest stage, in the biggest games.

Fact remains that Xavi at 22 and 6 months was a substitute player at World Cup 2002, and Xavi at 24 played was again a substitute (with zero minutes) at Euro 2004. This is not what you'd expect from a world class player. To not be playing at two of the most important tournaments around the age he was supposedly world class. Had Guardiola not arrived in 2008-09 and changed the negative path of the team, few people would've said Xavi was a top 5 midfielders ever based on what he has shown at 23-24. Maybe Xavi would've indeed been sold and he would've struggled at Bayern or wherever he went.

But it was my mistake that I opened this subject here, a place that is very sensible to any kind of dicussion that tries to imply Messi doesn't carry teams on his own, or Xavi wasn't born world class.

Lots of words, little substance. Xavi was delivering for Barça, you just weren't watching. Even worse to use stuff like "he was a substitute in wc 02" to undermine him. Check who was the spanish coach then, or how awful spain was. But that doesn't matter, right? And you call Alexis world class, for instance, and Xavi at 23-24 was already a much better player than alexis' peak.

If Pep hadn't arrived, Xavi would've moved to bayern or another team, and who know what'd happen. You can try to predict a probable future, but you have no way of knowing what would actually happen.

And just to repeat myself, Xavi had already owned europe before pep arrived. You obviously ignore that, as it doesn't fit your agenda. It was really just a coincidence that spain started to dominate when Aragones was appointed and made Xavi a starter, surely.

 

[serghei]

Lots of words, little substance. Xavi was delivering for Barça, you just weren't watching. even worse to use stuff like "he was a substitute" to undermine him. Check who was the spanish coach then, or how awful spain was. But that doesn't matter, right? And you call Alexis world class, for instance, and Xavi at 23-24 was already a much better player than alexis' peak.

If Pep hadn't arrived, Xavi would've moved to bayern or another team, and who know what'd happen. You can try to predict a probable future, but you have no way of knowing what would actually happen.

If stating some facts that show why he wasn't world class imo is undermining Xavi, I have nothing more to add. He was a substitute at Euro 2004, around the time he was supposed to be a clear starter, as a result of being a world class player. You blame that on the manager. Doesn't hold very well imo. In 2002, while Xavi was 22 years and 6 months old, he was also a substitute player at the World Cup in 2002. Spain were robbed of a semifinal place that year, so they actually were pretty good without Xavi. Not that awful is it?

 

[FlaFCB]

If stating some facts that show why he wasn't world class imo is undermining Xavi, I have nothing more to add. He was a substitute at Euro 2004, around the time he was supposed to be a clear starter, as a result of being a world class player. You blame that on the manager. Doesn't hold very well imo. In 2002, while Xavi was 22 years and 6 months old, he was also a substitute player at the World Cup in 2002. Spain were robbed of a semifinal place that year, so they actually were pretty good without Xavi. Not that awful is it?

Facts? LOL. Those are not facts. It's just pure fallacy. Spain had a coach(Iñaki Sáez) who would insist in starting big names, even if they weren't playing well. Also, it's really unheard of for a coach to prefer older players instead of trying youngters in wc, right? "while Xavi was 22 years and 6 months old, he was also a substitute player at the World Cup in 2002" this is really ridiculous

That's a bit desperate, serghei. None of those "arguments" of yours hold water. Pure fallacy, over and over. Looks like the "repeat a lie several times and it becomes the truth" thing. Anyone who watched Xavi when he was 22, 23, 24 knows how good he already was. Shame for you that you did not. You missed a lot.

 

[serghei]

Facts? LOL. Those are not facts. It's just pure fallacy. Spain had a coach(Iñaki Sáez) who would insist in starting big names, even if they weren't playing well. Also, it's really unheard of for a coach to prefer older players instead of trying youngters in wc, right? "while Xavi was 22 years and 6 months old, he was also a substitute player at the World Cup in 2002" this is really ridiculous

That's a bit desperate, serghei. None of those "arguments" of yours hold water. Pure fallacy, over and over. Looks like the "repeat a lie several times and it becomes the truth" thing. Anyone who watched Xavi when he was 22, 23, 24 knows how good he already was. Shame for you that you did not. You missed a lot.

How come those big names and older players weren't playing well if they were winning in Europe and in Spain? Valencia dominated La Liga around that time, with 2 titles in 3 years, so of course their midfielders were rated more highly. Nothing wrong with that. So, the manager wasn't dumb to play Valencia players instead of Barca players, when those players dominated La Liga. How could you justify playing Xavi and not playing the midfielders from the best team in the country and a superior Real Madrid?

For me, there is no way of establishing that a player is world class without said player performing at the highest level in his own league, in Europe, or at International competition with his national team. You say about videos and highlights. That's extremely subjective and down to personal preferrence. Some like a certain type of football, some like other styles.

Xavi was far from a versatile player, who would work in different setups, he didn't have a wide variety of skills. Didn't have a great shot, didn't have a lot of strenght, wasn't a scorer, wasn't a defensive beast or very good in 1 vs 1. He needed the team to play in a way that would maximize his strenghts, and minimize his weaknesses in order for him to perform at a world class level. That only happened late under Aragones and mostly in Pep's time, when Xavi did perform consistently at a world class level on the biggest stages.

 

[jamrock]

I'm starting to think Sergei is young, I mean so young he missed even the rijkaard era, Because some of the things he is saying about xavi can only be explained that way.

Xavi was a top class players before pep, pep came and turned him into a god, because pep philosophy on football suited xavi perfectly. But because pep elevated xaviC's game to a point, that maybe only 5-10 midfielders have ever reached in the history of this beautiful Game, doesn't mean he wasnt class.

Cesc could hardly get a start while xavi, Inieata and xabi was in midfield for spain, only later on did he become a stater and not in his right position, doesn't that mean he wasnt world class?

PS I hate cesc

 

[FlaFCB]

How come those big names and older players weren't playing well if they were winning in Europe and in Spain? Valencia dominated La Liga around that time, with 2 titles in 3 years, so of course their midfielders were rated more highly. Nothing wrong with that. So, the manager wasn't dumb to play Valencia players instead of Barca players, when those players dominated La Liga. How could you justify playing Xavi and not playing the midfielders from the best team in the country and a superior Real Madrid?

For me, there is no way of establishing that a player is world class without said player performing at the highest level in his own league, in Europe, or at International competition with his national team. You say about videos and highlights. That's extremely subjective and down to personal preferrence. Some like a certain type of football, some like other styles. '

Xavi was far from a versatile player, who would work in different setups, he didn't have a wide variety of skills. Didn't have a great shot, didn't have a lot of strenght, wasn't a scorer, wasn't a defensive beast or very good in 1 vs 1. He needed the team to play in a way that would maximize his strenghts, and minimize his weaknesses in order for him to perform at a world class level. That only happened late under Aragones and mostly in Pep's time, when Xavi did perform consistently at a world class level on the biggest stages.

How do you know Xavi was far from a versatile player, or this, or that, when you weren't watching him back then? You didn't know about his injury in 2006, or even that he was already a established starter for Barça. It's really weird to talk so much about something you have no real clue about. The "superior" rm finished 4th in 03-04, btw. Barça had a good campaing, and won the title the next 2 seasons, with Xavi being one of the most important player in those seasons. At 23, 24 and 25 years old.

As I said, pure fallacy, nothing else. Let's see how far you go with that, keep it up. Please post some more of your "fachts"

I'm starting to think Sergei is young, I mean so young he missed even the rijkaard era, Because some of the things he is saying about xavi can only be explained that way.

Xavi was a top class players before pep, pep came and turned him into a god, because pep philosophy on football suited xavi perfectly. But because pep elevated xaviC's game to a point, that maybe only 5-10 midfielders have ever reached in the history of this beautiful Game, doesn't mean he wasnt class.

Cesc could hardly get a start while xavi, Inieata and xabi was in midfield for spain, only later on did he become a stater and not in his right position, doesn't that mean he wasnt world class?

PS I hate cesc

Yep. He seems to not have watched Barça's rijkaard at all.

 

[serghei]

How do you know Xavi was far from a versatile player, or this, or that, when you weren't watching him back then? You didn't know about his injury in 2006, or even that he was already a established starter for Barça. It's really weird to talk so much about something you have no real clue about. The "superior" rm finished 4th in 03-04, btw. Barça had a good campaing, and won the title the next 2 seasons, with Xavi being one of the most important player in those seasons. At 23, 24 and 25 years old.

As I said, pure fallacy, nothing else. Let's see how far you go with that, keep it up. Please post some more of your "fachts"

How do you know I wasn't waching Xavi back then? Do I have to remember every injury a player has had to prove something to you? Think not. I'm allowed to forget things that happened a decade ago, especially considering I wasn't following Barcelona as closely as now (still watched Xavi), forums like this didn't exist, internet was not everywhere in my country and so on.

Madrid finished 4th in 2004. But won the Champions League in 2000 and 2002 as well. In 2003 played a Champions League semifinal against Juventus and were La Liga champions. They had much more success than us during the early 00's.

Yes, Xavi won the title in 2005, 2006 and at 25-26 years old he started to appear in the NT as well, on a regular basis (World Cup 2006). It's only normal. The original comment was about Xavi being at Gomes' and Denis' age. Which is 22-23. Not 25-26. 2-3 years of development can be a lot for a player.