Quique Setien

[kollegah]

So it would seem

These people also believe or believed in the following:

* Bartra was meant to be the new Puyol
* Deulofeu future Bdor winner
* Puig to be reincarnation of Xavi iniesta
* Ansu fati next Samuel Etoo

***TBC

 

[JohnN]

These people also believe or believed in the following:

* Bartra was meant to be the new Puyol
* Deulofeu future Bdor winner
* Puig to be reincarnation of Xavi iniesta
* Ansu fati next Samuel Etoo

***TBC

Might as well through in there they were flat earthers too, since you are over generalising everything.

 

[messi2140]

Valverde witnesses at it again. How is the door knocking working out ?

 

[Rory]

Lol, you got angry now.
The problem is that 90% of fans think with their emotions and their hope for a brighter future and not with a cold logic.

You called me a miserable sod, I could call you a naive 13 years old girl who talks about her dreams and not about reality.

If you want to break a success, cycles, rise and fall of football clubs into factors, I would write it this way:
1. president and a board
2. Sporting directors
3. A coach
4. Money
5. Longterm sporting project by sporting directors and a coach where they choose their system, formation, tactics and buy players according to these plans
6. Players
7. La Masia young talents
8. A state of your domestic and european opponents
9. Some luck in matches, regarding injuries, easy CL draw, refs help

Now, let's check our first successfull era in 2000s: 2004-2006 with Rijkaard

1. A good president Laporta, check
2. A goat sporting director Txiki, check
3. A good coach with a clear plan, ideas, authority and charisma, Rijkaard, check
4. Money, check
5. Longterm sporting project, check
6. Players: Txiki and Rijkaard bought 15 new players in 2 summers for their project, not some random players like Dumbele, Cou or Griezz, check
7. La Masia: Valdes, Puyol, Xavi, Iniesta, Motta, Gabri, Oleguer, check
8. A bad state of direct opponents: Valencia was dying, Real were declining old Galacticos, Atletico was a midtable club. A perfect timing to grow and win even if you are not at 100%, check
In Europe: no Psg, shitty Bayern, no oil money, Italians were on a verge of bankruptcy, check
9. Some luck: red cards for Chelsea, a red card in a final of 2006 for Arsenal

Now, let's check 2020 and see how many factors are favorable in this moment:
1. Barto, a president till summer of 2021 (18 months) and even then, maybe his assistants will win the elections again
2. Sporting directors: Roberto, Segura, Abidal, lol
3. A coach: 61 years old guy fired by Betis
4. Long term sporting plan: play with 33 years old divas and pair them with expensive misfits like Dumbele, Cou, Griezz, lol. A new plan: sign another amigo Neymar, lol.
5. Money, check
6. Players, horrible
7. La Masia=dead
8. State of the opponents=RM has a better team, a right coach and better youngsters
In Europe, there are at least 10 super rich teams, so the situation for rebuilding is way harder than in 2003 or 2008
9. Luck with injuries, a CL draw or lucky goals=we aren't lucky lately

So, basically, out of 9 factors which were here during Rijkaard's and Pep's start, today we have 1=money.

So, you see, firing EV, selling Raki and similar, surely won't change too much.

For the next 18 Months, nothing will change.
Barto will stay.
Abidal will stay.
Busi, Sukki, Pique, Alba will stay.
We can only hire and fire coaches but the results won't improve.
La Masia is dead.
Epl is richer and richer.
And on top of all=we will lose Messi.

So, even if you get a perfect president in 2021, a perfect sporting directors, a perfect coach.
We will still need 10-15 good transfers and some time for a team to click.
Yet, we won't have any La Masia kids so it will be hard to play Barca's DNA football with 11 foreigners.

So, roughly, even if we make everything right, we could start to show signs of improvement in 2023 at earliest.

But since it is hard to get everything right that fast, the more likely is that we will be similar to a current Man Utd, Arsenal, Liverpool pre Klopp.

So, you see, if you want to be realistic and if you remove emotions and dreams, there is ABSOLUTELY nothing which suggests any improvements before 2023 at earliest.

Also, when you guys dream about Frenkie, Arthur and co, from now on you should take into the account that they will play and grow in a mess for at least 3-4 more seasons.

I often see posts: let's give a player xx one season under a proper coach and with a functional team.
Well, it won't happen anytime soon.

And this post isn't about egos or I told you so.

It is a cold reality if you look at a bigger picture and if you dig deeper into reasons and circumstances why some clubs are in winning or losing eras.

Look at Liverpool.
Ok president.
Good sporting directors and scouts.
Good long term project.
Money, check.
Good coach.
Right players for their sporting project.
Some domestic youngsters.
And except City, their opponents are shit.
Plus, they are lucky with some results and with injuries.

Liverpool also has 8-9 needed ingredients for a success.
Again, Barca in this moment has only 1 ingredient=money.

Basically, the only option for our growth is that Font guy.
Yet nobody knows whether he is good or just a same crap like Barto.
And even if he'll win, he will need good sporting directors, a right coach, 10-15 new players, decline of RM, luck etc.

Way too many "ifs".

It sounds like a Science fiction now, but really, in 2-3 years, we will look back at titles under EV and say: ah, good old days. We were at least capable of winning back then.

Genuinely not angry bbz haha miserable sod was tongue in cheek, just having a discussion even if it seems heated . I'd say we're about 5 players away from being able to contend with best in the world at the moment which is Liverpool. I guess I just prefer to be a bit more optimistic on my outlook and not hold so much negativity when we've been presented with a possible change (Setien), if things stay the same till after the summer transfer window then fair enough, we don't know if there'll be player changes at the end of this season, history says there won't be but hey can only hope. Naive would be to say we're going to win and be fine with what we have. What I'm saying is different it's simply if we fail badly we are more likely to kick out older players. Why would we do that? Because the older players make up key positions in the team and will ultimately be at the heart of any failure.

Also I really can't be bothered to dissect each point you've made but I have to point out you were saying before how everyone was making out Real Madrid are suddenly better than they are just because Setien was in the job now and that people were already making excuses for him. But then you've also used as a point for your argument here that Real have a better team and manager.

 

[Rory]

These people also believe or believed in the following:

* Bartra was meant to be the new Puyol
* Deulofeu future Bdor winner
* Puig to be reincarnation of Xavi iniesta
* Ansu fati next Samuel Etoo

***TBC

Why are all Valverde keyboard warriors the same? Paint everyone out to have these extreme views so you can more easily attack what they supposedly think. Oh I answered my own question.

 

[George_Costanza]

Should change this thread name from Quique Setien to Retardo.

I only read posts about Retardo here.

 

[serghei]

Keyboard cruyffistas really believed a manager who almost relegated Betiswas going to fix the issues of FC Barcelona?

You guys wanna be taken seriously with posts like that?

He finished 3 points off an Europa League spot. 'Almost relegated Betis' is a blatant lie. The fact that such a blatant lie has been liked by another pro-Valverde supporter just further showcases how low the level of argumentation has sunk.

 

[serghei]

A coach is an authority only in formal way.
To earn respect in other 50%, he needs to win the players over either with his charisma, fame, knowledge...

I will pull an analogy.
Amigos think that they are the best in the world.
Now, let's look at our forum.
You Serghei, think that you have the best tactical knowledge here.
So, you are amigos in this analogy.

Now imagine that this forum is a job and that Barcaman (the owner or Barto) picks a coach/forum moderator Gasgas.
And Barcaman tells that we need to listen to Gasgas.
Gasgas will give general ideas about formations and lineups, and we, other users (employees or players) need to listen to coach Gasgas and apply his ideas.

Now, if Gasgas would post some weird lineup or tactics, would you (who consider yourself as a tactical Goat) follow those bad ideas or would you say: fuck this shit?

You see, Gas is only formally an authority.
In this case, he wouldn't earn your tactical respect with an amazing ideas.
(No offense dear Gas)

This is why, when appointing a coach, you can't bring anyone and tell to spoiled superstars: you need to follow him blindly.

This is why Zidane is good.
He gets respect because of who he is as a former player.
On the other hand, who the fuck is Setien?
A no name footballer.
A no name coach.
And then he throws some weird tactics from 1992.

Ok, the players are spoiled, but still...

Imagine in 20 years, who would get more respect as a coach: some random dude from a forum, Gumbau or let's say Xavi?

So, the players are spoiled, but it is what it is.
Then you need someone who knows his job and who will earn some respect.

Also, you guys see that as impossible, but what if:
Ev came and told Messi: you will play as a RW.
Messi said: no.
Ev then said: ok, where do you wanna play.

Then EV told to Alba, Suarez, Pique: you will play this way.
They replied: fuck off, lol.

Then, you can bench all of them and end 4th on a table.
Or accept "it is what it is", lose your spine, do what players want and still win some titles.

I mean, you know the story about Pique, EV and New York...

So, you have 2 solutions:
1. Do what amigos want and win some titles, but suck in a CL
2. Or bench amigos, play with Riki and Alena, end 5th on a table, lose money from sponsors, lose all titles and get angry fans and media

We are so deep into this, that there is no "happy ending" in this moment.

Now when you sum it all, I don't find it that hard to believe that amigos are against Setien:
1. Because he is either totally clueless and lost
2. Or because he wants to implement his ideas, which 32 years old players don't agree with like: formation, 3 at the back, physical training regimes which oldies can't do.

You act as if we live in a perfect world.
If my boss sucks, I will tell that.
Especially if I am a goat and can't get fired in any way (like in the case of amigos).
I won't be a hypocrite and I will say: if I were Pique or Messi and if I wouldn't like coaches ideas, I would openly say: this sucks, this is not a right direction.

And then again, it is not as if we have hired Klopp.
We hired a midtable coach who was fired from every job, lol.

So, this story is not that simple.
If you have spoiled amigos, then hire Bielsa or Mourinho.
You can't hire Unzue, Eusebio or Setien and expect respect from players who won 8-10 la ligas towards a guy who barely managed to finish in top10 places in la liga.

As always, we suck on so many levels.
This Titanic has 100s of problems and they won't go away with EV, Raki, Setien or in 1-2 summers.

You don't seem to understand concepts such as rank, hierarchy, boundaries and roles. If you believe these should be questioned by the simple whims of the players, than you support a team ran by chaos and you are not to be taken seriously. This culture only breeds yes men who are maneuvered by the selfishness of players who can't deal with the requirements of elite football anymore. So they constantly try to find ways to influence the standards that are asked of them.

The natural order is:

1) strong documentation before hiring a manager
2) full powers for the manager
3) players implementing the manager's plan
4) evaluation of that manager's results after a given time (the so-called objectives-results ratio).
5) decision about the continuity of discontinuity of said manager.

That is the platform built on healthy progressive principles. There is no other way. An approach where you sack a manager because some veterans are unhappy with things is mega-dangerous.

In every society and association, either sportive, military, or civil or of any kind, people have functions, roles, powers and obligations. These are of ground 0 importance. They precede everything else. It is one of the pillars of civilization, not only professional football. Just because you have an opinion and want something, doesn't give you the right to get it, unless elected or named to do so by society itself. The manager has that power because it was given to him by the board led by Bartomeu, who was elected by the socis as the President of Barcelona.

Do you think that just because some general is an idiot, and may be incompetent, it is ok for the 'general' position and rank to be stripped of its power? It's mental if you do.

Same here. The rank protects and empowers the person, whether we're talking about an expert or an incompetent. This is why it is key to have a top board. To make sure you don't name incompetents in high hierarchy functions, such as manager, technical director etc.

So, BBZ, even if you are right (we're going here with the very very low chances that Setien is an incompetent - your dream scenario basically) you are wrong.

 

[serghei]

Basically, I'm giving you a 10/10 argument in terms of solidity for why the manager is right here, and the veterans are wrong. You counter with a good retort, which correctly underlines what can sometimes happen when rules are followed (a manager acting in full power of his profession and functions) if the manager is an incompetent. However, you use that argument to draw one of the worst logical conclusions possible. That rules should not be followed and can be eliminated or suspended, just because at times they protect professionals who are not very good.

Innocent people are sent to jail at times. Let's just abolish the law, or make it optional. No, we keep the rules and obey them at all times, but we work harder to make sure bad things don't happen by enforcing them.

 

[serghei]

And to go back to Setien, what needs to happen is this:

- full backing of Setien to make whatever technical decision he wants
- evaluation in the summer
- decision regarding his continuity until 2021

Zero tolerance for veterans who moan they train too hard. Messi is a special case, but if he moans and sides with his pals instead of leading this team, zero tolerance for him too.

I fully agree that if we replace Setien in the summer, we need to hire a big name for the 2020/2021 season.

 

[Gnidrologist]

Setien's bad because some overpaid degenerates on the team don't want to work their asses off, but still want to get the fat paycheck and therefore got upset. Bring Cuckverde back plx. BBZ and his crew of merry tards never fail to deliver some fresh perspective.
I mean, we aren't even talking about tactics here, which would at least be valid criticism and grounds for skepticism for future. He should certainly focus on adding some dynamism to his tiki-taka, but no, the problem is that he's actually trying to coach team instead of being the head amigo.

 

[jairzinho]

IIRC EV lost his very first 2 matches in charge here against RM but the majority here were willing to give him a chance.
QS on the other hand has the disadvantage of no pre-season, no 9, and a much older fractious squad among other things.

 

[bismp]

We were terrible,but the Valencia away game has been really hard for every Barca coach.

And as I’ve been saying,there is only relative little Setien can do at this point of the season and he definitely can’t achieve anything overnight.

If I recall correctly,we have 3-4-5 easy games coming,so the team has a chance to hopefully build some momentum for the rest of the season.

I don’t think La Liga is over yet.

Visca Barca


(In any scenario,the board has to go asap)

 

[Tackle]

The communication between Quique Setién and Barça's dressing room does not work, and the first distance between the new manager and his players has already taken place. [Cat Radio]

According to Ramon Salmuri on Catalunya Ràdio's "Tot costa" program, Setién's first talk surprised the Barça players by the demands and lack of empathy. According to this information, some players do not understand the coach's instructions and there are players who do not understand their role in the team. Mestalla, obviously, has been the trigger for many of these differences that are now emerging, especially football differences. One of the messages, say from the locker room, that Setién repeats most in the first ten days on the Barça bench is that of possession without losses. The coach repeatedly emphasizes the need to avoid ball losses, aware that they strip the team and show their fragility defensively. Possession and risk must be avoided. That is why it is not understood that the manager, in the post-match press conference in Mestalla or Granada, speaks of meaningless passes, or lack of depth when players understand that priority is another. Misunderstanding is at a high level when men who are to be the pallbearers of "Setianism" and their style of play are also puzzled by the coach's guidelines.

Something similar, lack of understanding between them, happens with the roles ... There are footballers who do not understand, or see, the look of the coach. Players who feel that this is not the right system, or that they are not the best footballers to perform that function as defenders to attack or attackers to defend. These are small differences that turn into giants when it comes to dressing room status. Either because they attack their hierarchy, because the message does not arrive, or because they understand that their virtues are not being exploited, but all this gunpowder, more or less usual when a project starts, becomes dynamite when the context is poisonous.

Right now, in the Barça locker room, there is a clear distance, not between the coach and players, but between the players themselves. There is no communion and that poison everything. Any problem can be saved if the dressing room is attached and ready to paddle in the same direction, whatever. But now all this has jumped. There is no communion. The locker room is not attached and this puts everything at risk. And the faces, when returning from Mestalla, showed these differences. A journey after defeat already involves long faces. But the cold and aloofness that manifested itself from Manisses to Barcelona left many who saw it frozen.

https://www.ccma.cat/esport3/la-com...stidor-del-barca-no-funciona/noticia/2985621/

Dead man walking already. We never heard any reports of these sorts even in Valverde's worst moments. Enjoy the trophyless season lads and pop some champagne to getting rid of Dickverde!

 

[KingLeo10]

The communication between Quique Setién and Barça's dressing room does not work, and the first distance between the new manager and his players has already taken place. [Cat Radio]



Dead man walking already. We never heard any reports of these sorts even in Valverde's worst moments. Enjoy the trophyless season lads and pop some champagne to getting rid of Dickverde!

Lmao, you mean to tell me players are more upset/disconnected about a loss to Valencia than historic CL humiliations not once, BUT TWICE.

Miss me with that bullshit, dawg.