Lionel Messi - v7

[serghei]

With Messi, there needs to be a middle ground instead of flat out doing whatever he wishes kinda free mode deal thing we have going on.

There needs to be more responsibility in places such as the Midfield, and instead of just "Giving it to Messi" and hope he creates something. The team has had this problem since the decline of Xavi and Iniesta, where the Midfield has slowly become more of a water carrier deal and hoping Messi does all the creating instead.

It worked in the 14/15 because had the likes of Alves, MSN, etc but this is 2019, where we have Fullbacks that aren't Alves level in terms of talent and an aging Suarez and Messi and musical chairs of winger options.

Having good Midfielders also helps, but it also requires an environment to have our Midfielders that can have more responsibility on the ball and instead of just being tasked with giving it to the fullbacks/Messi and just act like makeshift DMs in the middle of the park.

There's nothing wrong with giving the ball to Roberto/Alba/Semedo but we have got to learn passing it wide or to Messi is not always the best solution in hand to bail us out. I mean in the Liverpool game was this in a nutshell when we kept giving the ball to Alba and he was having a torrid time out there as it is.

What we want is just very hard to achieve with a manager like Valverde. Advanced midfield dynamics in possession football are unaccesible to Valverde. It is like us demanding from a junior programmer to build us an app like facebook or twitter. Best that guy can do is a 3 page wordpress site.

The issue is a good portion of the fanbase is okay with paying a fortune for the football equivalent of a 3 page wordpress site.

 

[serghei]

There are only 3 solutions for our issue:

1) lower our standard and accept getting beaten / humiliated by inferior teams in Europe
2) sack the incompetents and bring in the real valuable professionals
3) keep doing the same thing over and over again, and hope that the next year we will get more lucky and maybe win a Champions League in the end

My bet is that we will keep doing the same thing under Valverde. We will probably still play well on Camp Nou, win the vast majority of the games at home, and still try to park the bus and survive away, playing defensive football and giving the ball to Messi, hoping for a way out like the Argies are doing. Maybe next year we'll lose 2-0 not 4-0 and we'll scrape through. Of course there's always the possibility that we will face another top team that just smells the blood vs this lethargic defensive Barcelona and they put us to the sword like Roma and Liverpool did. Maybe it's gonna be PSG of all teams.

This is Valverde's last missing piece at the club. To surpass PSG as the no1 joke club in the Champions League.

 

[Never_Forget40]

Till 2012 Messi was the GOAT. But since then, especially after the 7-0 against Bayern, people said Pele, Maradona were better players than him. In 2015 he got his GOAT level back and the people started again to say that nobody was ever better than him. Then Ronaldo won 3 consecutive Champions League by scoring 43(!) goals and now I often hear people calling Ronaldo is better than Messi. Its crazy if you compare the opinions about Messi in 2012 with now.

 

[Mitchell1978]

Till 2012 Messi was the GOAT. But since then, especially after the 7-0 against Bayern, people said Pele, Maradona were better players than him. In 2015 he got his GOAT level back and the people started again to say that nobody was ever better than him. Then Ronaldo won 3 consecutive Champions League by scoring 43(!) goals and now I often hear people calling Ronaldo is better than Messi. Its crazy if you compare the opinions about Messi in 2012 with now.

not really, only in your bizarro/biased world, most recognise the season he just had as one of the greatest seasons ever

and outside of ronaldo and man u fan boys i don't see many people making an argument for him, as for Maradonna the only remaining people who think he's the greatest are older Argentinians

 

[Mitchell1978]

No wonder we are 0-16 in the games that kicked us out from CL.

lol, yeah barça's record is terrible in games they lose, 0-...

Lol, in half of those highlights he is wandering in the center circle.

thats what you see from that clip? Calling you biased doesn't even do it justice

You're so frustrated about the CL that you see and talk about negatives about players.

Want running? Go support James Milner and Liverpool...

 

[Never_Forget40]

not really, only in your bizarro/biased world, most recognise the season he just had as one of the greatest seasons ever

It would have been one of his best season when he would have won the CL. Now its ''just'' one of his good seasons but nobody will recognize his true contribution for that season. You seem to be more a fanboy than a fan.

 

[Mitchell1978]

It would have been one of his best season when he would have won the CL. Now its ''just'' one of his good seasons but nobody will recognize his true contribution for that season. You seem to be more a fanboy than a fan.

That will be part of the narrative by people who don't understand statistics and can't judge performance accordingly.

Team result isn't and shouldn't be the deciding factor in how you judge performance.
2008-09 barça won the treble and Messi was great, start of his prime and won the ballon d'or for that season but comparing it to his other season its somewhere between his 7e and 9e best season.

 

[Never_Forget40]

That will be part of the narrative by people who don't understand statistics and can't judge performance accordingly.

Team result isn't and shouldn't be the deciding factor in how you judge performance.
2008-09 barça won the treble and Messi was great, start of his prime and won the ballon d'or for that season but comparing it to his other season its somewhere between his 7e and 9e best season.

Yeah youre right but people dont understand that. Im sorry to calling you a Fanboy.

 

[Mitchell1978]

Yeah youre right but people dont understand that. Im sorry to calling you a Fanboy.

I don't care, i'm a Messi fan before being a barça sympathiser, its the players and the playing style that intrest me not institutions.

Adding to my previous point about team success:

compare 14/15 and last season in the CL:

14/15: in the semi-final against Bayern scored 2 late goals and then created a clear cut chance for Neymar and Ney scored. Return leg he and Suarez created 2 great chance for Neymar, 2 goals and barça qualify (even though they suffered in the 2e half)

18/19: in the semi-final against Liverpool, scored 2 late goals and then created a clear cut chance for Dembele and Dembele missed poorly. Return leg he creates 3 chances for teammates and they all miss.

The difference between those 2 seasons is almost entirely the quality of the team around him.

 

[serghei]

If you look at the teams Messi won the CL with they are all teams filled with world class players. So much for Messi carrying Barcelona...

The best thing about his legacy when he will retire will be his great consistency in La Liga, not his Champions League performances. He could have done so much more in the Champions League, but he didn't really. His only truly superb performance in the CL against elite opponents since Pep era is the Bayern home game on Camp Nou from 2015.

Other than that... he hasn't been nearly as good as in 2009-2011. Those will remain his peak years in CL, especially 2011, with games like Madrid away and United on Wembley being his absolute greatest performances at crunch times imo.

His game is not suitable for CL that much, because CL is a lot about intensity, hunger to win, and hard work, and Messi is lacking in these areas. Which is why I have it as Messi superior and more determinant in the league campaigns, with Ronaldo as the more decisive player in the big Champions League matches across their careers. Don't think it will change tbh, and I think Ronaldo is more likely to win the CL again than Messi is, even though Messi is 2 years younger. Overall Messi will retire as one of the best players of all time, but a bit of an underachiever in the Champions League considering the amount of talent he has had.

 

[Arizona Scott]

serghie, i just don't agree with your premise here. too much luck and randomness in the cl--it is the exception the best team in europe wins it period. outside of real 3 years ago and barca 2 times the best team has not won it over the past decade. if you are the best team in europe you have a .3 or .4 chance tops, because there are other very good teams and a bounce or call or single play makes a difference.

liverpool wasnt the best team in europe last year and was a brilliant save from alisson to not even make the knockouts. liverpool, like barca and city, were however good enough to give them a decent chance and the same will be true next year.

 

[Arizona Scott]

btw how are messi vs cr in cup final wins, goals, assists and chances created? personally i only remember one cup final win where cr was decisive--and their whole team outclassed juv on that day.

 

[Mitchell1978]

If you look at the teams Messi won the CL with they are all teams filled with world class players. So much for Messi carrying Barcelona...

The best thing about his legacy when he will retire will be his great consistency in La Liga, not his Champions League performances. He could have done so much more in the Champions League, but he didn't really. His only truly superb performance in the CL against elite opponents since Pep era is the Bayern home game on Camp Nou from 2015.

Other than that... he hasn't been nearly as good as in 2009-2011. Those will remain his peak years in CL, especially 2011, with games like Madrid away and United on Wembley being his absolute greatest performances at crunch times imo.

You're stuck in your own biased and simplistic views, for example you dismiss everything he did this year in the CL (a campaign filled with superb performances) just because barça didn't win the CL

You seem utterly unaible to properly judge a players performance.

 

[serghei]

You're stuck in your own biased and simplistic views, for example you dismiss everything he did this year in the CL (a campaign filled with superb performances) just because barça didn't win the CL

You seem utterly unaible to properly judge a players performance.

You are so blinded by your non-stop Messi worshipping that you fail to see that the post you quoted is in fact half-praising Messi. With you and others here, if you don't flat out think Messi is god on Earth, then you are the enemy.

The good part is that many are also starting to see that Messi brings both great things, and bad things, and it's a matter of trying to mend the issues so that the bad sides of his game don't hurt us too much in the Champions League. That is all.

Nobody has been denying the great things he does on the pitch for Barcelona, but it is a reality that in the last years, his bad habits have been more exposed in the CL, than his good parts. You can carry on pretending everything is fine, as if the captain of the team has no responsibility whatsoever when they fuck it up royaly.

The reality is that Messi in La Liga is a lot more effective than Messi in the Champions League. It is obvious that his flaws get more exposure when the opponent is applying a lot of energy and workrate and intensity, because these are aspects where he suffers to compete vs the likes of Liverpool.

 

[te amo barca]

Of course Messi is going to have the most goals assists dribbles key passes touches and all those stats if he is the one starting and ending almost every attack. This is not an indicator of him becoming better or something. Better stats do not mean he is playing better. It is clear that Leo has declined compared to 14/15 or 11/12. His decision making in attack has been becoming more questionable and sometimes even frustrating in these last two years, and I’m not talking about the obvious physical decline.