Hardy
Senior Member
2 magic words: ko stage. They are not good as 2014 but stats don't lie, their defence still one of the best in europe.
Cr150
- Thread starter El Flaco
- Start date
2 magic words: ko stage. They are not good as 2014 but stats don't lie, their defence still one of the best in europe.
It isn t only about bad coaches, it s also about the better team.
Yes, mentality vise, CR is more driven, but i would bet that the main source of his motivation was spanking he got from Messi and Barca 5+ years ago.
He is easer to neutralize, because he moves less not because "he can only score in 1 way".
You have only 1 single example of CR turning not so perfect team into a winning team and that team (Portugal) won the final without him, so even that...it s questionable.
Yes in the past 5 years he was clutch in big games----->his driven mentality
About "lazy" Messi able to deliver CL only if a whole team is working perfectly......let s wait and see shall we?
It s not about the whole team playing perfectly, but it would help in a mayor way if his teams weren t so Messi depended in creative AND scoring parts of the game. And this brings us back to coaches.
MagIX
Senior Member
It seems that Juve is a poor, weak team and thanks cr, juve has become a solid and fantastic team.
Juve last year (without cr) was winning at Bernabeu 3-0 till 90. min....
Juve is absolutely top 5 european team since years.
MU reached the CL final 2011 (with old scholes) without cr and they won the premiere league (with old scholes) without cr.
I don't remember rm with cr reaching a cl final...
Cr is a fantastic player, but without a solid and well functionning team you can't win.
Juve last year (without cr) was winning at Bernabeu 3-0 till 90. min....
Juve is absolutely top 5 european team since years.
MU reached the CL final 2011 (with old scholes) without cr and they won the premiere league (with old scholes) without cr.
I don't remember rm with cr reaching a cl final...
Cr is a fantastic player, but without a solid and well functionning team you can't win.
soul24rage
Senior Member
Some magic words: Girona scored 3 goals in a KO stage. That's with the deficit of having a score draw at home. Not the CL but for Girona it might as well be for them.
ATM has one of the best Def in the world but saying that Juve without CR7 (who are still one of the top 5 clubs in the world even without him) would have no chance to making a comeback is deluded.
Leo_Messi
New member
[MENTION=16942]BBZ8800[/MENTION]
I am sure that you have made reasonable points in your latest post (have to admit that I did not read the entire post, not out of disrespect but due to the post simply being a bit too long, similarly how I expect other users not to always read my posts here for a similar reason if I am writing long posts, this one included) but I just noticed that you were saying that C. Ronaldo is making average teams great while the opposite is the case with Messi? Are you really serious when you are writing that?
Messi reached 3 finals IN A ROW with a bang average Argentina side while being the by far most important and vocal player. How is that not making his teammates better? Or what about everything that we have won with him at the club? This season and last season alone (potentially two doubles in a row and who knows maybe even the freaking third triplete in 10 years, something totally incredible) is due to his genius. Look at the percentages of his goals and assists for us. He is like the player behind 2/3 of all of our goals. It's insane at this level.
C. Ronaldo did not win anything with Man Utd during his first 3 seasons for them (2003-2006) because there were better teams in England and Europe. From 2006-2009 he won because Man Utd were the by far best team in England and one of the best in Europe hence them reaching 1 CL-semifinal and 2 finals in that period. To somehow make that team look like it was average by mentioning the age of Scholes, players like Carrick and Hargreaves is an typical example of downplaying that Man Utd team, that happens to be the best in their history alongside the 1999 treble team and hyping C. Ronaldo.
Van der Saar (all-time great), prime Ferdinand, prime Vidic, prime Evra, prime Brown (had his best season in 2008 when they won their only CL in this period), Scholes at a very high level, prime Rooney, Tévez, Nani, prime Carrick, Giggs, Park Ji Sung (one of the more underrated players in terms of defensive contribution in that era). Far from bums.
YET they were only a John Terry slip away from winning 0 CL's. Ronaldo having missed his penalty. Once again the famous "luck" of CR7.
Where was C. Ronaldo between 2009-2013? 4 seasons for a stacked RM team and only 1 league title and 1 CdR to show for. Because we had the superior team.
Everyone knows what occurred between 2013-2018. 1 league title and 1 CdR to show for other than nothing domestically (85% of the season). In the CL RM were arguably only the best team in Europe in 2014 and 2017. Even in 2014 they needed a miracle header from Ramos 100 seconds before the final whistle to save their ass.
We all saw the insane luck, refereeing decisions (offside goals in the CL final like in 2016), penalty wins (2016) which is basically Russian roulette and getting outplayed by the likes of Wolfsburg, Juve, Schalke and others during those wins. Most importantly against Bayern last year and in 2017. Both semifinals.
The same Ronaldo that was invisible in the 2014, 2016 and 2018 finals. That is 3 finals out of 4. Invisible (for good reason) in the EURO's final against France as well.
In his 6 major finals in his career he has been invisible/bad in 4 of them. That is 2/3 of the time. So let us not try to create a new narrative of him somehow being faultless and always showing up on the biggest stage unlike Messi.
What C. Ronaldo lacked (lacks) in terms of talent and ability compared to Messi he made up for it in terms of hard work and dedication which deserves greater respect, indeed, objectively speaking. However what Messi lacked in insane luck and general luck, C. Ronaldo was blessed with it plentiful of times unlike the same Messi. That is undeniable IMO.
Even the insane behavior from FIFA due to Blatter's innocent comments about C. Ronaldo back in 2013 that made him and his entourage cry 24/7 and the voting period was extended otherwise Messi would have won another Ballon d'Or. It's this type of luck, insanity, destiny, call it what you want, that C. Ronaldo has had throughout his entire career unlike Messi. Can't make it up, really.
Lastly this should not be necessary to remind anyone of, but Juve have won jackshit (in terms of the CL) this season. Nothing changed other than them kicking out the inferior team on paper and in practice yesterday. They should never have allowed Atlético to score twice against them while scoring 0 goals in the first leg. If not for that Correa gift, Atlético might even have qualified in extra time. Let's not pretend that Juve are somehow clear favorites, lol, and that they have already won it.
Already countered sufficiently by [MENTION=22502]soul24rage[/MENTION] .
Another thing. 3 of the most important players (defensively) for Atlético where missing yesterday. Lucas Hernández (second only to Godín if not already better this season), Filipe and Partey. Not to mention Costa who is much better than Morata and twice the hard worker thus also crucial defensively. 2 times the bigger balls likewise and would not be pushed aside by the likes of Chiellni or Bonucci.
Atlético (due to Simeone's idiotic and cowardly tactics) were defending with a freaking 34 year old Juanfran (midget), bang average Arias (another midget), Giménez (another midget for a CB) and slow and old and not overly tall either Godín. There is a reason why Atlético do not want to extend the contract of Godín and why he will move to Inter of all clubs for his well-paid retirement destination.
If VVD and Piqué had been the CB pairing for Atlético, C. Ronaldo would have scored 0 goals. None of those 2 headers and neither the penalty gift due to the insane stupidity of Correa and his -30 IQ.
With 30-40 crosses into the box someone is bound to score at least once (2.5% efficiency) or twice (5% efficiency).
I am sure that you have made reasonable points in your latest post (have to admit that I did not read the entire post, not out of disrespect but due to the post simply being a bit too long, similarly how I expect other users not to always read my posts here for a similar reason if I am writing long posts, this one included) but I just noticed that you were saying that C. Ronaldo is making average teams great while the opposite is the case with Messi? Are you really serious when you are writing that?
Messi reached 3 finals IN A ROW with a bang average Argentina side while being the by far most important and vocal player. How is that not making his teammates better? Or what about everything that we have won with him at the club? This season and last season alone (potentially two doubles in a row and who knows maybe even the freaking third triplete in 10 years, something totally incredible) is due to his genius. Look at the percentages of his goals and assists for us. He is like the player behind 2/3 of all of our goals. It's insane at this level.
C. Ronaldo did not win anything with Man Utd during his first 3 seasons for them (2003-2006) because there were better teams in England and Europe. From 2006-2009 he won because Man Utd were the by far best team in England and one of the best in Europe hence them reaching 1 CL-semifinal and 2 finals in that period. To somehow make that team look like it was average by mentioning the age of Scholes, players like Carrick and Hargreaves is an typical example of downplaying that Man Utd team, that happens to be the best in their history alongside the 1999 treble team and hyping C. Ronaldo.
Van der Saar (all-time great), prime Ferdinand, prime Vidic, prime Evra, prime Brown (had his best season in 2008 when they won their only CL in this period), Scholes at a very high level, prime Rooney, Tévez, Nani, prime Carrick, Giggs, Park Ji Sung (one of the more underrated players in terms of defensive contribution in that era). Far from bums.
YET they were only a John Terry slip away from winning 0 CL's. Ronaldo having missed his penalty. Once again the famous "luck" of CR7.
Where was C. Ronaldo between 2009-2013? 4 seasons for a stacked RM team and only 1 league title and 1 CdR to show for. Because we had the superior team.
Everyone knows what occurred between 2013-2018. 1 league title and 1 CdR to show for other than nothing domestically (85% of the season). In the CL RM were arguably only the best team in Europe in 2014 and 2017. Even in 2014 they needed a miracle header from Ramos 100 seconds before the final whistle to save their ass.
We all saw the insane luck, refereeing decisions (offside goals in the CL final like in 2016), penalty wins (2016) which is basically Russian roulette and getting outplayed by the likes of Wolfsburg, Juve, Schalke and others during those wins. Most importantly against Bayern last year and in 2017. Both semifinals.
The same Ronaldo that was invisible in the 2014, 2016 and 2018 finals. That is 3 finals out of 4. Invisible (for good reason) in the EURO's final against France as well.
In his 6 major finals in his career he has been invisible/bad in 4 of them. That is 2/3 of the time. So let us not try to create a new narrative of him somehow being faultless and always showing up on the biggest stage unlike Messi.
What C. Ronaldo lacked (lacks) in terms of talent and ability compared to Messi he made up for it in terms of hard work and dedication which deserves greater respect, indeed, objectively speaking. However what Messi lacked in insane luck and general luck, C. Ronaldo was blessed with it plentiful of times unlike the same Messi. That is undeniable IMO.
Even the insane behavior from FIFA due to Blatter's innocent comments about C. Ronaldo back in 2013 that made him and his entourage cry 24/7 and the voting period was extended otherwise Messi would have won another Ballon d'Or. It's this type of luck, insanity, destiny, call it what you want, that C. Ronaldo has had throughout his entire career unlike Messi. Can't make it up, really.
Lastly this should not be necessary to remind anyone of, but Juve have won jackshit (in terms of the CL) this season. Nothing changed other than them kicking out the inferior team on paper and in practice yesterday. They should never have allowed Atlético to score twice against them while scoring 0 goals in the first leg. If not for that Correa gift, Atlético might even have qualified in extra time. Let's not pretend that Juve are somehow clear favorites, lol, and that they have already won it.
Already countered sufficiently by [MENTION=22502]soul24rage[/MENTION] .
Another thing. 3 of the most important players (defensively) for Atlético where missing yesterday. Lucas Hernández (second only to Godín if not already better this season), Filipe and Partey. Not to mention Costa who is much better than Morata and twice the hard worker thus also crucial defensively. 2 times the bigger balls likewise and would not be pushed aside by the likes of Chiellni or Bonucci.
Atlético (due to Simeone's idiotic and cowardly tactics) were defending with a freaking 34 year old Juanfran (midget), bang average Arias (another midget), Giménez (another midget for a CB) and slow and old and not overly tall either Godín. There is a reason why Atlético do not want to extend the contract of Godín and why he will move to Inter of all clubs for his well-paid retirement destination.
If VVD and Piqué had been the CB pairing for Atlético, C. Ronaldo would have scored 0 goals. None of those 2 headers and neither the penalty gift due to the insane stupidity of Correa and his -30 IQ.
With 30-40 crosses into the box someone is bound to score at least once (2.5% efficiency) or twice (5% efficiency).
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Hardy
Senior Member
no, it's just reality, and the struggle of Real this season in terms of goal scoring should open your eyes, someone said same thing last years, Real would have won CL even without Ronaldo, that was the real delusion, well surprise surprise they missed even the QF once Ronaldo left.
Juventus is one of the top 5 clubs in the world? Likely yes but doesn't mean that without Ronaldo they would have scored 3 goals against this Atletico, in CL, after losing 2-0 the first leg, not a freaking copa del rey when Atletico played with some subs, I just don't see that scenario. Juventus made deep runs in CL in the last seasons thanks to their defence, the only times they scored more than 2 goals in a ko stages of CL since they are a legitimate contender for the win are against us when Lucio lost his brain playing with 3 CB and last year at Bernabeu when Real played without Sergio Ramos, so both defence not even remotely compared to Atletico. So yes, chance that Juve would comeback without Ronaldo? less than zero, maybe there is a reason why they signed him after all...
Hardy
Senior Member
enough, Ronaldo can score 5 goals and some of you will find a way to discredit him. One time is tap in, the other is header or penalty, last year someone said he scored that goal, one of the best goal ever in CL because he was unmarked, just saying the level of arguments. To have some credit seems like you should score an hattrick with a freekick and solo run. This is football, not a race of ice skating.
Leo_Messi
New member
Where do I not give him credit? You are just overreacting and not seeing sound and sane arguments (objectively speaking). He scored 2 headers from 5-10 meters away and a gift (penalty) that he did not create. Against a very weakened Atlético team that is in steep decline and nowhere near as good defensively as earlier as already proven by another user who highlighted it. He was marked by fucking Juanfran on the first goal. I could have scored there being almost 10cm taller than C. Ronaldo. On top of that they had their worst performance this season yesterday against a great Juve COLLECTIVE. Stop making it sound like Ronaldo had an insane performance or that he alone won them that game. It was the team collective that did it AND a ALLEGRI masterclass.
Juve has without a doubt been a top 5 team in Europe in the past 5 seasons. No if's. What they did last year at the Bernabéu was more impressive. Without Ronaldo but against him. The same Ronaldo that was invisible in that game (aside from a penalty kick), against Bayern in both CL-semifinal legs and in the final where he was overshadowed by Bale and fucking Karius. Much like RM qualifying to the final in the first place due to another insane gift from that reserve goalkeeper of Bayern. Ulrich or what he is called. Talking about insane luck that has been his best friend throughout his entire career.
I repeat, Juve have won jackshit yet. Might only win the scudetto (which they already won beforehand and 7 times in a row without the imaginary GOAT C. Ronaldo) and them winning against the worst Atlético in years, with a weakened defense and team for that return leg, and even making it exciting (considering that Juve have the better team individually and much more money and a bigger winning mentality and tradition as a club) is not a testament of the greatness of C. Ronaldo. In particular as he was nowhere to be seen in the first leg.
The tendency to even make C. Ronaldo's shit appear like a high quality Eau de Cologne is tiring ffs.
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BBZ8800
Senior Member
I have wrote in the past, that since late 90s, I watched Barca's CL knockout defeats in every April/May, and I always had a feeling: we are too light.
We lack some defending, we lack some muscles. We are somehow too technical, too attacking, weak in defending and too naive in overall.
That works up to a certain point, but we eventually always fail in quarters and semis.
Then Rijkaard in 2006 changed our formula and won with a more cautious approach (Edmilson/Motta/Van Bommel plus Oleguer as a RB, plus not playing all out attack like crazy).
Plus, we had options to score with feet and head in that season (Etoo, Larsson).
Then Pep came, turned our game into extremes with shortpassing/possession game.
That worked awesome for 3 years imo due to teams being shocked by our play, and due to us having prime Messi, Xavi, Iniesta, Busi, Alves in the same time.
Other than that, my personal opinion is since always that our style of play in GENERAL, except in rare occasions when you have Messi and the best generation ever, just lacks something for the highest level in Champions league.
This is why I was raving about height, more muscles, workhorses and similar for years, because tons of similar CL exits for 20 years in a row.
But as said in the last few weeks, now I have figured out that this applies ONLY for a CL. And that we don't need workhorses and physique (and headers) for La Liga, where players are technical and short and where majority of teams play technical football, the same as us.
And lately, imo (feel free to correct me), I have developed a new theory:
Barca's style is perfect for La liga.
But flawed for a CL.
Real's, Juve's, Atletico's style is weak for La Liga compared to our style.
But is superior in CL KO 50:50 matches.
Further, the same is with Messi vs CR7.
Messi's style (closer to Barca's) is a perfect for La liga, where the opponents are technical and lighter.
CR7's style (headers) is not as good as Messi's against Getafes and Levantes.
On the other hand, in Europe, against physical european teams, Messi (and Barca) struggles.
While CR7 and similar teams have more success than us (and Messi).
Leo Messi, regarding your part how Messi played a lot of finals.
Well, regarding Copa America finals, imo, that is the same story.
South American teams are similar to La Liga: teams aren't THAT defensive.
Also, they (except Mexico) run less than English CL teams.
Also, South American teams are quite short compared to European teams.
So, again, where Messi had the most success in his career?
1. in La liga, against TECHNICAL teams, where the defenders and midfielders are usually shorter and physically weaker and where teams aren't playing THAT strong defense.
2. and in South America, the same story.
Where has Messi struggled?
1. in a CL against PHYSICAL and TALL teams with strong midfielders, defenders and parked buses.
2. on World cups against PHYSICALLY strong European teams who are tall/strong/fast and who play stronger/more tactical defenses than Latino/South American teams
For example, look at an interesting stat of Messi's matches with Argentina at World cups since 2006:
World cups, Messi:
Won:
Serbia 2006
Mexico 2006
South Korea 2010
Greece 2010
Nigeria 2010
Mexico 2010
Nigeria 2014
Bosnia 2014
Iran 2014
Switzerland 2014
Belgium 2014
Nigeria 2018
Lost:
Germany 2010
Germany 2014
Croatia 2018
France 2018
Draw:
Netherlands 0:0 2006
Netherlands 0:0 2014
Iceland 1:1 2018
Messi vs European teams at World cups:
5 wins (Serbia, Greece, Bosnia, Switzerland, Belgium)
4 defeats (Germany, Germany, Croatia, France)
3 draws (Netherlands, Netherlands, Iceland)
Messi vs rest of the world at World cups:
7 wins, 0 draws, 0 defeats
Further, in 12 matches on World cups against EUROPEAN teams, Messi has scored only 2 goals.
And those were against Serbia and Bosnia in group stage.
Messi wasn't able to score against big teams like Germany (twice), France, Croatia, Netherlands (twice), Belgium.
So, you see, my recent theory is, BOTH Barca and Messi share similar patterns:
1. against weak/technical La liga teams=Messi will score 30+ goals and Barca will win La Liga each season
2. against physical European teams, Messi has iirc 1 goal in the last 12-13-14 matches, right? So, the same story again.
Barca and Messi are good and scoring easily against techical/physically weaker, or in overall: inferior teams.
Both Barca and Messi are quite sterile against physically stronger European teams.
Now, you are right, La Ligas also count.
But I am just commenting on this 20+ years long pattern of Barca and Messi, where both are insanely successful against one type of opponents are quite sterile against different type of teams (physical European teams).
This is why I am saying, regarding Barca, that we should add more options into our game.
Because playing ONLY on the ground and through Messi works ONLY in La liga and against inferior or physically weaker opponents.
That style is more often that not, NOT good enough in a CL knockout stages.
Further, more CL history stats:
Barca NEVER lost to ANY technical team (except Real Madrid) for the past 20 years in a CL knockout matches.
We are always losing to either physical thugs like Atletico/Juve or to fast/running teams from England.
Check this, ALL Barca's Knockout rounds opponents since 2000:
Technical teams or "normal" teams vs physical or teams who run like crazy (English teams):
** I excluded Real Madrid, because imo they are a mix between a technical and a physical team.
I also excluded Psg, since I can't put them in one of these two categories: technical or physical.
Also, I am counting Man City and Arsenal as "technical" teams because they are playing almost the same as we do, unlike Man Utd, Chelsea and Liverpool, whom I would rate as more physical teams (in this technical vs physical part):
Matches against technical or "normal, lower quality" teams:
Won:
Panathinaikos 2002
Benfica 2006
Arsenal 2006
Celtic 2008
Schalke 2008
Lyon 2009
Stuttgart 2010
Arsenal 2010
Arsenal 2011
Shakhtar 2011
Leverkusen 2012
Man City 2014
Man City 2015
Arsenal 2016
14 wins, 0 defeats in the last 20 years.
Matches against physical or teams who run way more than us:
Won:
Chelsea 2000
Chelsea 2006
Milan 2006
Bayern 2009
Chelsea 2009
Man Utd 2009
Man Utd 2011
Milan 2012
Milan 2013
Bayern 2015
Juve 2015
Chelsea 2018
Lost:
Valencia 2000, physical, counterattacking, thugish team back then.
KO group stage by Milan and Leeds 2001
Juventus 2003
Chelsea 2005
Liverpool 2007
Man Utd 2008
Inter 2010
Chelsea 2012
Bayern 2013
Atletico 2014
Atletico 2016
Juve 2017
Roma 2018
12 wins, 13 defeats. Plus, Chelsea in 2009 should have been a defeat also. So, it should have been 11 wins, 14 defeats.
So, imo, AGAIN almost EXACTLY the same pattern as in La Liga and as with Messi:
Barca/Messi almost CAN'T lose a match against other technical teams (Arsenal, Porto, Benfica) or against overally inferior team like Panathinaikos, Schalke, Shakhtar etc.
On the other hand, Barca BOTH before Messi and with him are losing OVER and OVER to the same type of opponents: Counterattacking thugs Valencia 2000, Milan 2001, Juve 2003, Chelsea 2005, Man Utd 2007, Liverpool 2008, Chelsea 2009', Mou's Inter 2010, Chelsea 2012, Bayern 2013, Atletico 2014, Atletico 2016, Juve 2017, Roma 2018.
2008: Man Utd 1:0
2010: Inter 3:1
2012: Chelsea 1:0
2013: Bayern 4:0
2014: Atletico 1:0
2016: Atletico 2:0
2017: Juve 3:0
2018: Roma 3:0
What is more interesting, in the last 10 years, in last 8 CL exits, we scored only 1 goal on those 8 away KO matches.
We lost EACH 8 times on away matches when we were knocked out.
Our goal ratio is 18:1.
In ALL these matches we:
1. played against PHYSICAL European teams
2. and we had Messi in a team
Messi didn't score a single goal.
This is cruel towards Messi, but he is a GOAT when we play against technical or "normal" teams.
Against PHYSICAL Champions league teams and against EUROPEAN NT teams, he is invisible and neutralized in roughly 80% of matches.
For the end, again:
1. if you want to win La Liga next season=put Messi in your team and play possession football
2. if you want to win CL=take CR7, and a mixture of possession, counters, crosses and headers
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soul24rage
Senior Member
Did you also think that Girona had less than zero chance of making a comeback against ATM? They faced the very same ATM defence that Juve faced last night. If Girona can score 3 goals against that same defence, then why can't Juve without CR? Being realistic would be to say Juve without CR would have a low percentage of making a comeback. With CR, that percentage goes up. But to say they had 0 chance (in your own words less than zero...) what's the point of playing then, might as well just forfeit the match lol.
Leo_Messi
New member
[MENTION=16942]BBZ8800[/MENTION]
You can make the exact same statistic concerning RM and every other top club. Their statistics against the heavyweights and top dogs will obviously be significantly worse as well. Just look at their pathetic statistic against us in the past 10 years in all tournaments (CL included) in the past 10 years for instance. Or before 2014, against Bayern. Or AC Milan or Juve.
Actually comparing Messi's time with the Argentine national team is a study for itself as he has had numerous managers all with their own philosophies. He had only consistency once and that was during the Sabella era where surprise, surprise, he and the team performed best.
We had this discussion about style before. Winning knockout competitions is not an exact science. To win you need (usually, at least in the World Cup) great teams collectively and in every department (defense, midfield, attack, the right mentality, leaders on your team and luck). In the CL more fluke teams have won that competition in recent years (Liverpool, Chelsea, Porto, RM etc.) due to it being an annual competition but the same recipe applies to the CL.
Yet our style (the Cruyff model) has made us into the most successful team (in terms of trophies won) in the past 30 years. By far better than anyone else in the top 3 historical leagues (La Liga, EPL and Serie A) and only second to RM in terms of CL success and not by much (5 to 7 and mostly due to Zidane's insane run lately). So our model is working and we don't need to scrap it but just add certain elements to it in the CL against certain teams.
Problem is also that our managers have (overall) been very average since Pep left. That most people can see.
The thing is that our play (since 2012) has been way too dependent on Messi. When it was not the case and when we had other world class players (attackers) in the team who could take the burden away from him and make us less predictable to defend against (2015) we won it. We probably would have won it in 2016 too if not for choking against a clearly inferior Atlético team.
I have always been in favor of us having a different approach in the CL against physically strong teams. Hence me wanting physically strong and quick CB's (always) and a strong and physically strong (good in the air) number 9 preferably. Say a Drogba or Batistuta or Kluivert at his best. That and a strong collective that never gives up and always fights. Hence my favorite (imaginary) manager being a mixture of Pep and Simeone (in terms of creating strong defensive unites on paper with inferior players than the elite teams, never die attitude, yesterday was a bad example but usually it works etc.).
Nowadays we are far too predictable (been saying it since 2016) and way too slow and static with no aerial threat in the attack which is why I have been in favor of replacing Suárez since 2017 and against our entire playing style being this dependent on Messi. Likewise why I am such a big fan of Dembélé due to his talent, his unpredictability, pace, and individualism. Basically he is one of our only major offensive threats and outlets that are not easy to close down for the opposition. Compare him with the likes of Coutinho and there is no comparison in this regard.
You can make the exact same statistic concerning RM and every other top club. Their statistics against the heavyweights and top dogs will obviously be significantly worse as well. Just look at their pathetic statistic against us in the past 10 years in all tournaments (CL included) in the past 10 years for instance. Or before 2014, against Bayern. Or AC Milan or Juve.
Actually comparing Messi's time with the Argentine national team is a study for itself as he has had numerous managers all with their own philosophies. He had only consistency once and that was during the Sabella era where surprise, surprise, he and the team performed best.
We had this discussion about style before. Winning knockout competitions is not an exact science. To win you need (usually, at least in the World Cup) great teams collectively and in every department (defense, midfield, attack, the right mentality, leaders on your team and luck). In the CL more fluke teams have won that competition in recent years (Liverpool, Chelsea, Porto, RM etc.) due to it being an annual competition but the same recipe applies to the CL.
Yet our style (the Cruyff model) has made us into the most successful team (in terms of trophies won) in the past 30 years. By far better than anyone else in the top 3 historical leagues (La Liga, EPL and Serie A) and only second to RM in terms of CL success and not by much (5 to 7 and mostly due to Zidane's insane run lately). So our model is working and we don't need to scrap it but just add certain elements to it in the CL against certain teams.
Problem is also that our managers have (overall) been very average since Pep left. That most people can see.
The thing is that our play (since 2012) has been way too dependent on Messi. When it was not the case and when we had other world class players (attackers) in the team who could take the burden away from him and make us less predictable to defend against (2015) we won it. We probably would have won it in 2016 too if not for choking against a clearly inferior Atlético team.
I have always been in favor of us having a different approach in the CL against physically strong teams. Hence me wanting physically strong and quick CB's (always) and a strong and physically strong (good in the air) number 9 preferably. Say a Drogba or Batistuta or Kluivert at his best. That and a strong collective that never gives up and always fights. Hence my favorite (imaginary) manager being a mixture of Pep and Simeone (in terms of creating strong defensive unites on paper with inferior players than the elite teams, never die attitude, yesterday was a bad example but usually it works etc.).
Nowadays we are far too predictable (been saying it since 2016) and way too slow and static with no aerial threat in the attack which is why I have been in favor of replacing Suárez since 2017 and against our entire playing style being this dependent on Messi. Likewise why I am such a big fan of Dembélé due to his talent, his unpredictability, pace, and individualism. Basically he is one of our only major offensive threats and outlets that are not easy to close down for the opposition. Compare him with the likes of Coutinho and there is no comparison in this regard.
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soul24rage
Senior Member
I mentioned this to you before BBZ, that it’s pretty hard to judge the Arg team with 2010 they had freakin Diego Maradona as manager (lol) and in 2018 Sampaoli had no clue what he was doing with horrible team selection and strategy.
2014, you could say that Messi was coming off from his worst season to date (especially physically) and he still performed well enough to receive the golden ball.
I can’t believe you are counting the game vs the Netherlands 2006 when he was just turned 19 years old that summer.
The only thing I agree with you (besides the fact that CR7 performed better in CL knock out stage recently) is that we need more goal scoring strategy besides making Messi the only strategy.
El Barcelona
Active member
What's the fuss about him, did he do something special this week... 😜
vlad
New member
If its all about luck when it comes to ronaldo, i wonder what die hard messi fans think about counting cl from 2006 to messi's name when he didnt play majority of k.o. phase and then the finals, i suppose because 5:3 for ronaldo in cl trophies looks worse then 5:4, talk about luck 2009 vs chelsea, 2012 with player more and missed penalty vs chelsea, what bad luck has to do with performances vs atletico 2 times, 2015, probably the best messi performance in CL vs bayern, scoring 2 and assisting one, lets not forget that bayern played with almost second team that match, or psg that year first match same story, roma... then national team, why not admit messi look disconnected in his probably most important match in his career, WC final? Yeah, he cant do it alone, but that argie side was great, they were equal in final, then you expect player like messi will make the difference, but he didnt, he choked bad there.
Stop being such hypocrite when it comes to those 2, i know its barca forum, but i cant turn blind and just repeat mantra with ronaldo and luck and poor messi without luck, you cant be serious and so deluded and write those things. Why you just cant accept that messi is underperforming for some time in CL and it isnt about bad luck all the time
Stop being such hypocrite when it comes to those 2, i know its barca forum, but i cant turn blind and just repeat mantra with ronaldo and luck and poor messi without luck, you cant be serious and so deluded and write those things. Why you just cant accept that messi is underperforming for some time in CL and it isnt about bad luck all the time
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