Christian Eriksen

[MessiCam]

But Paulinho can't pass well enough, is not as hard-working as we'd like him to be. Keita was a superior passer and a better defenseman.

True, but he was a box to box option like Paulinho. Paulinho is no 10 and neither was Keita.

I think his best game for us was the one vs. Real Madrid. Pressing Kroos and covering on the right. I clearly remember a few times Marcelo tried to cross but was surrendered by Paulinho and someone else.

He was given that specific role. It's not the first time he's done it either. He marked Messi out of a game for Brazil too.

You say that it works only because of Messi which is true. But when Messi dops back we sometimes have 2 players in the box and can even cross. Crossing is huge for my part.

I think you have a very wrong idea about what a strikerless system like 4-3-3 False 9 really entails. I suggest you watch the 2010/11 Champions League final to see how the wings behave in the final third. They're players as well as the CM's making runs that occupy the box when the False 9 is working his magic. Playing a False 9 doesn't mean nobody occupies the box or that crosses aren't forthcoming.

Look at this video: Real Madrid all goals 2016/17.
I don't want us to become Madrid, but they scored at least 90% of their goals after a cross/longshot. Pulling numbers from my ass but it's close.

It's way easier. Why not utilize on it? Won't go BBZ now and say 70% possesion, 30% other things. But we should have more options.


Your point was about space. We didn't create much, that's my point despite having tons of space. Could we cross...

I've already dealt with Madrid. They're even more one dimensional than Barcelona. They are a cross heavy team.

And yes against Juventus Barcelona did cross. A lot...

True about Suarez. But he still does things strikers do. Stretches the pitch centrally etc.

This is not true. Strikers don't stretch play. They peel off into wide areas looking for space or they play off shoulders of the defence. They only ever take up central positions in then box.

Yes, that's why I want Griezmann. But he's still not good in the air. To be honest, wouldn't mind Aubameyang at all. Or a similar guy. If we had someone like him who could utilize crosses, combine well and exchange positions, I'd have no problems with Messi playing in the middle and that someone as an inside-forward.

Auba can't play wide...

Because there is no constant presence in the box. Messi is between the lines, Coutinho and Dembele are wide... and who's in the box? What we do when the ball is on the wing?

That's the main question, what do we do when the ball is on the wing since we can't cross? Try to play it back to Messi and lose it. That would happen most of the times.

And concede a counter.

Like I said above, your idea of a strikerless system is way off. The ball can't be on both wings simultaneously and the wings pick up central positions or positions in the half spaces with the full backs providing the width. The wings don't stay on touch line much like a 9 doesn't camp out in the box.

Look, I can even agree with you on this up to a point.

I attacked the false 9 right away. Maybe shouldn't have, although still have serious doubts. But the other two in the front three present a problem for me.

Dembele's finishing is poor. Coutinho's limited.

Don't want us to rely upon that. We need a constant threat in the box. IMO.

This is a myth... Dembélé's finishing is not poor (he can give you 15 -20 goals per season) and Coutinho scores a ton of goals for a wide player. He has scored 26 goals from 49 appearance for club and country whereas Suarez a CF has scored 33 goals from 52 appearances.

Your constant threat in the box is your wings cutting in.

Now that this is out of the way how do you propose we accommodate a striker and Messi centrally while having dedicated wingers without screwing midfield?

 

[Joan]

True, but he was a box to box option like Paulinho. Paulinho is no 10 and neither was Keita.


He was given that specific role. It's not the first time he's done it either. He marked Messi out of a game for Brazil too.

He doesn't have to be a 10. Simply not good enough to be a midfielder.

I think you have a very wrong idea about what a strikerless system like 4-3-3 False 9 really entails. I suggest you watch the 2010/11 Champions League final to see how the wings behave in the final third. They're players as well as the CM's making runs that occupy the box when the False 9 is working his magic. Playing a False 9 doesn't mean nobody occupies the box or that crosses aren't forthcoming.

I don't have a wrong idea. That's the point. Told you in my last post, it's not only about a false 9. It's about others. What Dembele does when he's in the box? If it's gonna be Dembele on the right then it shouldn't be Coutinho om the left and vice versa.

In 2011. we played with Villa and Pedro.

What crosses? Crosses for Dembele, Coutinho and Messi?

I've already dealt with Madrid. They're even more one dimensional than Barcelona. They are a cross heavy team.

They are not one dimensional at all. Crossing, counters, longshots and possesion football. They do it all, mosty crosses but that's not the point.

And yes against Juventus Barcelona did cross. A lot...

Don't you see the problem here?

This is not true. Strikers don't stretch play. They peel off into wide areas looking for space or they play off shoulders of the defence. They only ever take up central positions in then box.

Well, this is true. But they occupy central defenders thus stretching the pitch or stealing attention.

Auba can't play wide...

He can. Even played as a winger. Goes out wide often in Arsenal etc. Doesn't have to be a true winger to play wide.

Like I said above, your idea of a strikerless system is way off. The ball can't be on both wings simultaneously and the wings pick up central positions or positions in the half spaces with the full backs providing the width. The wings don't stay on touch line much like a 9 doesn't camp out in the box.

It's not really. I explained it above. Also, my example with Ronaldo on the left with Messi false 9.

My main problem is I don't believe Coutinho and Dembele could be enough vs. strong teams in UCL or against defensive trams.

We'd struggle the same way we used to. IMO, it would be even worse.

This is a myth... Dembélé's finishing is not poor (he can give you 15 -20 goals per season) and Coutinho scores a ton of goals for a wide player. He has scored 26 goals from 49 appearance for club and country whereas Suarez a CF has scored 33 goals from 52 appearances.

Your constant threat in the box is your wings cutting in.

Now that this is out of the way how do you propose we accommodate a striker and Messi centrally while having dedicated wingers without screwing midfield?

I think Dembele's skills would be much better used with someone like Auba and Messi for instance than with Messi and Coutinho.

That said, I have no problems with 4-2-3-1. Coutinho on the left, Dembele on the right. Someone upfront. If 2 pivots are not Busq and Rakitić.

 

[MessiCam]

He doesn't have to be a 10. Simply not good enough to be a midfielder.

But that’s what he is. A box to box midfielder. He does it for Brazil too... He does not play as a 10.

I don't have a wrong idea. That's the point. Told you in my last post, it's not only about a false 9. It's about others. What Dembele does when he's in the box? If it's gonna be Dembele on the right then it shouldn't be Coutinho om the left and vice versa.

But I then showed you... As Griezmann is a target then he should play on the right. You’re not happy with that either because you want a target man.

In 2011. we played with Villa and Pedro.

And, what is Griezmann and Dembélé/Coutinho?

What crosses? Crosses for Dembele, Coutinho and Messi?

I’ll get to this below

They are not one dimensional at all. Crossing, counters, longshots and possesion football. They do it all, mosty crosses but that's not the point.

They are. 90% of their scoring chances is created from crosses.

Don't you see the problem here?

That it didn’t work... It’s not always going to work and Real Madrid are proof of that.

Well, this is true. But they occupy central defenders thus stretching the pitch or stealing attention.

Football is not static. The wings occupy central defenders too. Very much so in a strikerless system. The CB’s can’t just stand there and do nothing. They can’t follow the False 9 too deep either. It creates uncertainty.

He can. Even played as a winger. Goes out wide often in Arsenal etc. Doesn't have to be a true winger to play wide.

Thank you very much. You’ve just proven my point. That a CF is not this all box occupying player as some make him out to be.

It's not really. I explained it above. Also, my example with Ronaldo on the left with Messi false 9.

This is quite unrealistic. How many players are equally good strikers as they are wings like Messi and Ronaldo?

My main problem is I don't believe Coutinho and Dembele could be enough vs. strong teams in UCL or against defensive trams.

What does a CF, Suarez in particular, offer you in this case?

We'd struggle the same way we used to. IMO, it would be even worse.

I wholeheartedly disagree because you have scorers as well as dribblers and passers not afraid to make a risky pass.

I think Dembele's skills would be much better used with someone like Auba and Messi for instance than with Messi and Coutinho.

You’re nitpicking. I could easily say that Messi’s skills would be mich better used with 2 wide players than a striker ahead of him.

That said, I have no problems with 4-2-3-1. Coutinho on the left, Dembele on the right. Someone upfront. If 2 pivots are not Busq and Rakitić.

Someone like who upfront? Because you’re sacrificing your midfield for a striker who is not good in the air. Messi as a 10 removes one player in defense too.

What a lot of you are doing is focusing on a striker and ignoring the team as a whole.

 

[Joan]

But that’s what he is. A box to box midfielder. He does it for Brazil too... He does not play as a 10.

Ok. Did he play as a 10 vs Real Madrid?

But I then showed you... As Griezmann is a target then he should play on the right. You’re not happy with that either because you want a target man.

This is true.

If I had to choose, I'd chose Griezmann Messi Dembele upfront rather than Coutinho Messi Dembele.

But, if I could get someone who's better in the air than Griezmann but technical and skillful enough, then I'd go for that guy.

Don't necessarily want a 'target man' like Pipita or Icardi.

And, what is Griezmann and Dembélé/Coutinho?

Close to that. Coutinho and Dembele, on the other hand, are worse.

I still think we need to be more versatile. Someone to finish the cross.

They are. 90% of their scoring chances is created from crosses.

True, but there are other things. Fast counters for instance. They also play with the ball the way we do. Not dependent on one style.

That it didn’t work... It’s not always going to work and Real Madrid are proof of that.

When did it work for Barca?

Madrid proves something else. Even if you outplay them, which has been the case numerous times over last 3 seasons, they find easier ways to score one or two and go through.

Football is not static. The wings occupy central defenders too. Very much so in a strikerless system. The CB’s can’t just stand there and do nothing. They can’t follow the False 9 too deep either. It creates uncertainty.

True. Not saying it's static. But I'm talking about situations when one team sits back.

Thank you very much. You’ve just proven my point. That a CF is not this all box occupying player as some make him out to be.

I don't think he's all box occupying player. But, I don't really talk about roles here (a striker, winger, inside-forward), what I'm talking are attributes of a player.

Think someone like Auba (first example I could think of) would give us more options and would be more dangerous in the box.

This is quite unrealistic. How many players are equally good strikers as they are wings like Messi and Ronaldo?

Not many, I know. I believe Griezmann could do it up to a point but then, what I dislike is that he's no threat in the air.

What does a CF, Suarez in particular, offer you in this case?

Suarez offers you a goal-scorer. He often fails, that's the reason we are talking about alternatives.

I don't believe Dembele and Coutinho would be dangerous enough against well-set teams.

I wholeheartedly disagree because you have scorers as well as dribblers and passers not afraid to make a risky pass.

We don't know that yet. Still remains to be seen if they can score vs. defensive teams who sit back.

You’re nitpicking. I could easily say that Messi’s skills would be mich better used with 2 wide players than a striker ahead of him.

I acknowledge I wouldn't mind a proper inside-forward in front of Messi.

Think Dembele's crossing is too good to be ignored. Look at his assists last season.

Someone like who upfront? Because you’re sacrificing your midfield for a striker who is not good in the air. Messi as a 10 removes one player in defense too.

What a lot of you are doing is focusing on a striker and ignoring the team as a whole.

Someone who's good in the air and can link up well.

 

[MessiCam]

Ok. Did he play as a 10 vs Real Madrid?

Nope. He was deployed on the right side of midfield to pocket Kroos. Valverde did it again against Chelsea in the second leg. Brought him on for Iniesta and he pocketed Willian by playing on the left.

If I had to choose, I'd chose Griezmann Messi Dembele upfront rather than Coutinho Messi Dembele.

That’s my preference too.

But, if I could get someone who's better in the air than Griezmann but technical and skillful enough, then I'd go for that guy.

I’ve put forward my alternative here too but I guess he is not galactico enough for this board. Martial. A wing-striker hybrid with an aerial presence.

Don't necessarily want a 'target man' like Pipita or Icardi.

They never work at Barcelona other than being options off the bench.

True, but there are other things. Fast counters for instance. They also play with the ball the way we do. Not dependent on one style.

Nah, they have peculiar mish mash. They are a good counter side but no better than us I’d say.

Madrid proves something else. Even if you outplay them, which has been the case numerous times over last 3 seasons, they find easier ways to score one or two and go through.

They have defenders who are great at attacking balls into the box.

True. Not saying it's static. But I'm talking about situations when one team sits back.

Suarez is not the answer.

I don't think he's all box occupying player. But, I don't really talk about roles here (a striker, winger, inside-forward), what I'm talking are attributes of a player.

Suarez could play wide. He did it for Ajax and for Liverpool too when Sturridge and Sterling started. Now he completely bottles every attack whether it be through the centre or out wide. He has basically become a poacher because all he can do is finish.

Think someone like Auba (first example I could think of) would give us more options and would be more dangerous in the box.

As I said above. My option instead of Griezmann would be Martial. Cheaper too.

Not many, I know. I believe Griezmann could do it up to a point but then, what I dislike is that he's no threat in the air.

I don’t believe we should focussing our play on getting aerial balls into the box.

Suarez offers you a goal-scorer. He often fails, that's the reason we are talking about alternatives.

It’s not good enough when the rest of his game has gone from piss pot to the shit house.

I don't believe Dembele and Coutinho would be dangerous enough against well-set teams.

I think they’d be immense. It would be a system more akin to Sarri’s at Napoli than anything else though.

We don't know that yet. Still remains to be seen if they can score vs. defensive teams who sit back.

Coutinho has proven this time and time again. Whether it be by shooting from distance or delivering a crazy pass. Dembélé is fantastic with his ingenuity so I have very little doubt about his ability to. Many forget that Dembélé is very versatile too. He played as a SS, CF, AM, LW, RW... He just needs more time to hone his Barça game.

I acknowledge I wouldn't mind a proper inside-forward in front of Messi.

Think Dembele's crossing is too good to be ignored. Look at his assists last season.

I agree. He is a fantastic crosser but there is so much more to his game than just that.

Someone who's good in the air and can link up well.

Good luck with that. But it still sacrifices our midfield. I’m no fan of 2 man central midfields. They’re limiting and are not conducive to possession play.

 

[Andrew M]

Anyone notice that MessiCam and Joan Laporta joined at the same time and have a similar post count and get into lots of heated discussions together?

I bet they are the same person with 2 personalities fighting it out

 

[Joan]

Which account should I reply to this from?

 

[DonAK]

Their opinions differ a lot.

 

[Andrew M]

Their opinions differ a lot.

Yes, quite typical of the condition.

 

[Joan]

Nope. He was deployed on the right side of midfield to pocket Kroos. Valverde did it again against Chelsea in the second leg. Brought him on for Iniesta and he pocketed Willian by playing on the left.

Mosty on the right, but often shifted in the middle. Anyways, in my opinion, that's what he does best. Pocket creativity while offering danger in the box.

But truth be told, he can play well in the midfield 3. Will have to see how it works with Coutinho.

That’s my preference too.

I’ve put forward my alternative here too but I guess he is not galactico enough for this board. Martial. A wing-striker hybrid with an aerial presence.

Seems like we could agree on things in the end.

What bothers me about Martial, who is surely a talent, is that he's not yet a proven player. Spending 80 to 100m once again on someone who's not known as a hard-worker and might fail doesn't strike me as the best planning for the future.

Speaking of types, he's close to what I have in mind.

Nah, they have peculiar mish mash. They are a good counter side but no better than us I’d say.

I'm still sure they are not one-dimensional despite being cross-reliant.

They have defenders who are great at attacking balls into the box.

Suarez is not the answer.

Not anymore. That's why we discuss this in the end.

Suarez could play wide. He did it for Ajax and for Liverpool too when Sturridge and Sterling started. Now he completely bottles every attack whether it be through the centre or out wide. He has basically become a poacher because all he can do is finish.

He could but he lost a great part of his abilities. But, coming into the season, he still was our main player and the team had to adjust.

I think he could still work very well as a poacher in other teams but not here anymore since Messi in the squad asks for distinguished roles of supporting players.

As I said above. My option instead of Griezmann would be Martial. Cheaper too.

That's the type I'd want too.

I don’t believe we should focussing our play on getting aerial balls into the box.

It shouldn't be our focal point, but surely an option. We'll never focus game on it since we don't have a team for that nor tradition.

Real Madrid example is not here to illustrate how we should set up our game, but rather show what we miss. How we can make it easier.

It’s not good enough when the rest of his game has gone from piss pot to the shit house.

I agree.

I think they’d be immense. It would be a system more akin to Sarri’s at Napoli than anything else though.

Vs weaker sides? Yes.
In transition? Yes.
On counter? Yes.

*all this considering the midfield is good enough*

Against parked buses? Don't think so.

Coutinho has proven this time and time again. Whether it be by shooting from distance or delivering a crazy pass. Dembélé is fantastic with his ingenuity so I have very little doubt about his ability to. Many forget that Dembélé is very versatile too. He played as a SS, CF, AM, LW, RW... He just needs more time to hone his Barça game.


I agree. He is a fantastic crosser but there is so much more to his game than just that.

Maybe I underrate Dembele. Still, I think we should always look to make it as diverse as possible.

But there are many unknown factors.
How will Dembele play next season?
Who will we get?
How will Coutinho adapt to the midfield role?

etc.

Good luck with that. But it still sacrifices our midfield. I’m no fan of 2 man central midfields. They’re limiting and are not conducive to possession play.

Some sacrifices will have to be made. But, really depends on that someone upfront we get. If it's Martial, you can play 4-3-3 false nine with him on the left. If it's Griezmann then the same.

I have no problems with double pivot formations if it suits your players.

 

[MessiCam]

[MENTION=22463]Joan Laporta[/MENTION] I’m not going to go through the entire post because we’ve found consensus on multiple points.

The only thing I’ll add is that there is no way Martial goes for 80-100 Million. No way! He only has a year left on his contract and didn’t make the World Cup squad, so 40-50 Million should seal it in my opinion unless United would prefer him to leave on a Bosman. That’s just bad business on their part but you never know with Mourinho.

 

[MTL_Barca]

[MENTION=22463]Joan Laporta[/MENTION] I’m not going to go through the entire post because we’ve found consensus on multiple points.

The only thing I’ll add is that there is no way Martial goes for 80-100 Million. No way! He only has a year left on his contract and didn’t make the World Cup squad, so 40-50 Million should seal it in my opinion unless United would prefer him to leave on a Bosman. That’s just bad business on their part but you never know with Mourinho.

United has an option for another year so it's pretty much a 2 year contract if they want.

 

[FC B]

Sport says Spurs asks €190 mill. for Eriksen, so there's no surprise he won't come here, even if it's less odds are we can't fuck with Levy.

 

[Joan]

[MENTION=22463]Joan Laporta[/MENTION] I’m not going to go through the entire post because we’ve found consensus on multiple points.

The only thing I’ll add is that there is no way Martial goes for 80-100 Million. No way! He only has a year left on his contract and didn’t make the World Cup squad, so 40-50 Million should seal it in my opinion unless United would prefer him to leave on a Bosman. That’s just bad business on their part but you never know with Mourinho.

If that's so, definitely worth a try.

 

[gregorrin10]

Barcelona have been handed a major boost in their pursuit of Tottenham star Christian Eriksen, with reports claiming the Denmark international is willing to force a transfer this summer. Eriksen is supposedly eager to follow in the footsteps of his fellow countryman Michael Laudrup. Eriksen supposedly views the chance to move to Ernesto Valverde’s side as a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity.

With Griezmann now rumoured to stay in Atletico, the plot thickens...