Borussia Dortmund

suckabov

Lemon curry?
Now you put it this way, it just seems that there is an undying hate towards Bayern. Probably because of their arrogance.

Yes, there is undying hate towards them in Germany, but no, it goes deeper than that. First of all, generally speaking, this is as much about football as it is about politics. Bavaria is not only one of the richest regions in Germany, it's also a region that perceives itself, and likes to present itself, as a distinct cultural entity, different from the rest of Germany. There's that cliché that Bavarians see themselves as Bavarians first and foremost, not as Germans. The club management (Hoeneß especially) epitomizes just that.
Then, on a football level, Bayern is the richest club in Germany, by a large margin. No other club in Germany has the financial means Bayern has, which is why they are perceived as "evil capitalists", or something like that. In connection with that, there's this accusation that they "raid" smaller clubs with a successful streak and buy their best players, leaving them to struggle with relegation and more or less bereft of their power. I'm not talking about Götze here, but about stuff that happened many years before that (Karlsruhe in 1997 for example). So Bayern are perceived to be killing any competition and in some cases, even damaging smaller clubs. Similar accusations were made when Götze was sold, but I wouldn't really compare that.
This perceived arrogance you're talking about is more about the management than about the players. Hoeneß has done a lot of the job, with his habit of praising Bayern players to the skies or statements like "Everyone is talking about Messi, but we have stars like Schweinsteiger, Lahm, Müller, Badstuber and Alaba" or "Toni Kroos is better than Özil".


So those anti-Bayern sentiments can't really be compared with Barca/Madrid hatred or anything. It's just something that is rooted in German football mentality, whether you like it or not.

And for the record, I don't hate Bayern, but I prefer Dortmund.
 
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Maria

New member
Yes, there is undying hate towards them in Germany, but no, it goes deeper than that. First of all, generally speaking, this is as much about football as it is about politics. Bavaria is not only one of the richest regions in Germany, it's also a region that perceives itself, and likes to present itself, as a distinct cultural entity, different from the rest of Germany. There's that cliché that Bavarians see themselves as Bavarians first and foremost, not as Germans. The club management (Hoeneß especially) epitomizes just that.
Then, on a football level, Bayern is the richest club in Germany, by a large margin. No other club in Germany has the financial means Bayern has, which is why they are perceived as "evil capitalists", or something like that. In connection with that, there's this accusation that they "raid" smaller clubs with a successful streak and buy their best players, leaving them to struggle with relegation and more or less bereft of their power. I'm not talking about Götze here, but about stuff that happened many years before that (Karlsruhe in 1997 for example). So Bayern are perceived to be killing any competition and in some cases, even damaging smaller clubs. Similar accusations were made when Götze was sold, but I wouldn't really compare that.
This perceived arrogance you're talking about is more about the management than about the players. Hoeneß has done a lot of the job, with his habit of praising Bayern players to the skies or statements like "Everyone is talking about Messi, but we have stars like Schweinsteiger, Lahm, Müller, Badstuber and Alaba" or "Toni Kroos is better than Özil".


So those anti-Bayern sentiments can't really be compared with Barca/Madrid hatred or anything. It's just something that is rooted in German football mentality, whether you like it or not.

I don't know about that..if you read spanish football forums you would understand just how hated the catalans are(especially Laporta and Pep because they want to be independent of Spain) or that the smaller catalan clubs have the same opinion of us as the smaller german clubs have of Bayern. After the 2010 WC we were received a little better in other stadiums, but you still hear "Puta Barca, Puta Catalunya" in pretty much every stadium we play(the Ultra Sur are singing it even when they're playing against Atletico).
And as far as Bayern's management goes, we have a president who makes 5-0 predictions before El Clasico or says that we're the best team in Europe when we're clearly not or that Iniesta is the 2nd best player in Europe..and then RM have Florentino, who says that the press is against them(when there isn't a team in Europe that has the support of the media like RM has with Marca, As, La Sexta, Intereconomia, Cuatro or even the spanish national television), that makes complaints to Uefa to suspend half of Barca team before a CL final or atacks RM players after he sold them so he could buy a new shiny toy.
And not to mention that the fans of the other spanish teams can't even talk about the TV money distribution without insulting us.
So I don't pretend to know just how hated Bayern is in Germany, but I doubt that we can't compare them with Barca/RM hatred in Spain.
 

suckabov

Lemon curry?
I don't know about that..if you read spanish football forums you would understand just how hated the catalans are(especially Laporta and Pep because they want to be independent of Spain) or that the smaller catalan clubs have the same opinion of us as the smaller german clubs have of Bayern. After the 2010 WC we were received a little better in other stadiums, but you still hear "Puta Barca, Puta Catalunya" in pretty much every stadium we play(the Ultra Sur are singing it even when they're playing against Atletico).
And as far as Bayern's management goes, we have a president who makes 5-0 predictions before El Clasico or says that we're the best team in Europe when we're clearly not or that Iniesta is the 2nd best player in Europe..and then RM have Florentino, who says that the press is against them(when there isn't a team in Europe that has the support of the media like RM has with Marca, As, La Sexta, Intereconomia, Cuatro or even the spanish national television), that makes complaints to Uefa to suspend half of Barca team before a CL final or atacks RM players after he sold them so he could buy a new shiny toy.
And not to mention that the fans of the other spanish teams can't even talk about the TV money distribution without insulting us.
So I don't pretend to know just how hated Bayern is in Germany, but I doubt that we can't compare them with Barca/RM hatred in Spain.

You're right, but that was not what I meant; I was expressing myself wrongly there. I meant that you can't compare the hatred towards Bayern with the hatred between Barca and Real, or the alleged Dortmund/Bayern rivalry with the Barca/Real one. To create a working analogy, Bayern would be Barca and Real in one, with the other teams in the Bundesliga representing the other teams in La Liga. Dortmund, despite having developed a world-class squad in the past few years, aren't really more serious contenders for Bayern than any other club (Schalke, Leverkusen, too name a few) - simply because no team has the financial means nor the "lobby" to be there on top with Bayern for many years. So all this "Dortmund fans hating on Bayern fans" isn't really the whole picture, and is only perceived that way by people who have known Dortmund since they got into that winning cycle. Again, I'd really like to see Dortmund break the spell and stay on top for many years, but that's written in the stars.

About the point you make regarding Barca/Real hatred being comparable to Bayern hatred, that's true, it's comparable to a large extent.
I do feel a bit uncomfortable comparing the Catalonia hatred with the Bavaria hatred (on a political level) because of their different economic situations - which is why I can understand the Bavaria resentment better than the Catalonia one (but I might be biased because I support Catalonia and "dislike" Bavaria).

As for Rosell/Florentino, that's true, they are not really better than Hoeneß. But the issue with Hoeneß is (and that's why he is hated more than anyone else in the Bayern mangement), he's been the club's manger since 1979. He is the club.
And not only that; in all these years he's even become a political figure in not just Bavaria, but in all of Germany - at least until his tax evasion scandal. (Now to explain, Bayern is similarly important to Bavaria as Barca is to Catalonia; the leader of the Bavarian party once said, "if Bayern is doing good, our party is doing good too". Hoeneß is good friends with the leader of the Bavarian party, the biggest Bavarian newspaper is hugely linked to the club, etc. Those three entities form a single, Bavarian entity in the eyes of many.) He was and still is a welcome dialogue partner for all sorts of political matters, talking about social policy and always happy to proclaim his opinions on current political debates. And he is paid attention when doing that, even by politicans. It seems like some politicians trust his opinions (why, I have no idea; perhaps because his mangement of the club was just brilliant, not only financially but on many levels) - that became especially visible when, after his tax evasion got public, leading politicians of all parties expressed their personal disappointment or their support for him on a personal level. He even was good friends with some.
So... many football fans fail to understand what a football manager has to do with political issues and get the feeling that Hoeneß, as a representative of FC Bayern, is way too connected in the political world (including all the conclusions one might draw from that).
In a way, you could also say that a lot of Bayern hatred is Hoeneß hatred. (Personally, I don't have much against him, except for the tax evasion issue.)

Sorry for going so much into detail here.
 
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Luftstalag14

Culé de Celestial Empire
One can dislike Rosell for many reasons, I for one do; but Rosell never struck me as the arrogant prick and blabbermouth that Hoeneß is. And Rummenigge is no better either.
 

Maria

New member
Saying that you're going to beat RM 5-0, that Cruyff would be nothing without Barcelona, that you're the best team in the world after what Bayern achieved this year or blaming the referees for our elimination in CL is clearly a sign of humility..and as bad as Bayern or their fans can be(and they are) atleast they admited in 2009 that they were thought a lesson after their game against us. I didn't saw the same thing after Barca-Bayern from this year..it was quite the opposite.
 
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ccesc

New member
Dortmund playing with Durm and Ducksch today. No Lewandowski, Sahin, Mhkitaryan in the first 11.
 

ccesc

New member
Jonas Hofmann :wub: coming for Reus (injury)

And Sahin for Schmelzer (injured too)
Crazy line-up right now :D


Lewandowski now for Kuba. (not Ducksch)
:nervous2:
 
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Luftstalag14

Culé de Celestial Empire
Actually, Dortmund would still be top unless Bayern scores a shitload of goals, or am I getting something wrong?

Yes you are right, it would be a tie, pretty much. But once you let Bayern regain the ground, it will be very hard to catch up with them again.
 

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