Arthur

[te amo barca]

Honestly BBZ's antics at a point this early are just meaningless. At least wait until Arthur plays for Barca, and if he doesn't look convincing, then bash him for all you want. At the moment this is just shitposting from you, BBZ.

 

[BBZ8800]

Honestly BBZ's antics at a point this early are just meaningless. At least wait until Arthur plays for Barca, and if he doesn't look convincing, then bash him for all you want. At the moment this is just shitposting from you, BBZ.

To me, a shitpost is when people say: he could be the next Xavi or he could bench Rakitic in the next season, that's HOW GOOD he is (comparing a guy with 0 matches in Europe with Rakitic with 10 years of Europe, NT matches and CL matches on his shoulders).
But, you don't see that as a shitpost, but just as: a hope for the better future.

I have said a few times, I don't know why, but I have some sort of "a problem" when people overhype unproven players (especially in a way: he should bench Raki) and then I get the urge to go into extremes with negative posts because I am pissed with constant overhyping of every single player whom we buy (Marlon is the next 3rd choice for the next 10 years, Semedo has the potential to be the best RB in the world, Umtiti-Mina will be our starters for the next 10 years, Arthur could be the next Xavi).

That's just me, but I find posts: Arthur is the next Xavi, equally as dumb as saying: Arthur is a total shit.

What [MENTION=16942]BBZ8800[/MENTION] fails to recognise is that talented young players from big European leagues fail miserably too. He has this thing where he tries to work out averages based on this and that instead of trying to judge them individually.

You just can't measure individual talent through averages. It's a paradox.

Yeah.
All players can fail.

A kid from Brasil may fail.
A kid from Spain may fail.
Arda from AM can fail.

But in each category there is a percentage of average success.
As you said, you can't measure individuals with average stats, but my point is that kids from Brasil are usually risky and a huge risk.

And as Te Amo wrote above, it is stupid to bash a kid before he played here, again imo, it is equally as dumb to draw overhyped conclusions from matches in a Brasilian league, especially from the matches like last night.

In short: from what we seen in Brasil, Arthur has potential.
Now, let's wait some NT matches or European matches to see whether he will be one of those who can succeed both in a small league and in a bigger league or he will be one of many who are good in a smaller league but can't live up in a tougher league where the level is way higher.

Tbh Brazilian league isnt THAT bad.
They usually play decently when facing bigger European teams.
Theres much worse leagues in Europe.

Ajax is also ok when they play big teams in a CL.
Shakthar is also decent from time to time.

That doesn't say too much about a Dutch 1st division.
An analogy: would you hail a 21 years old kid from Ukranian league who looks decent in their league matches or would you be cautious since the level of quality is way different in Ukraine, La liga and a CL.

Each of us is different and I understand that is nice to get hyped and have high hopes for a brighter future of our team.
But, that's just me, I find majority of posts in this thread as crazy and overhyped since Arthur is playing only in Brasilian league till now.

To some extent: we have just bought a CB, who was one of the best young defenders in South America, right? Mina is his name.
And he is barely playing in our team, even when Pique and Umtiti and injured.

Now, to some extent, we are buying a player of a similar profile, a midfielder who is also one of the best young midfielders in South America, Arthur.
Since our coach will be EV BOTH in Mina's and Arthur's case, imo it is not unreasonable to expect a similar treatment for Arthur in the beginning (or a long time until he will adjust to Europe).

One more time, Barcelona's record with Brasilian young players coming straight from a Brasilian league to Barca for now are:
2001: a winger Geovanni Deiberson, age 21, price around 20M when the world's record was 77M for Zidane.
-- so, let's say that a price would be around 50-60M in today's market when the record is 222M for Neymar
-- he played 26 matches in 2 years for Barca. He never turned into a world class footballer. Played for Benfica, Man City, Hull and moved to United states.
Midfielder Fabio Rochemback: age 20, price around 10M, let's say around 30M today (something similar to Arthur).
-- he was also sold after 2 seasons. He never turned into a good footballer later in his career. Played for Sporting Lisabon and Middlesborough.
2008: Henrique, aged 21, price around 10M, soimething like 20M today.
Played for Leverkusen and Racing Santander after Barca.
2009: Attacker Keirrison, aged 21. price around 15M, something like 30M today (the same as Arthur).
He never turned into a good player in Europe.
2013: Neymar
2014: 24 years old Douglas.

In the last 20 years, we bought 6 Brasilians straight from a Brasilian league.
Only 1 (Neymar) made it here.
And only Neymar had a good career in Europe in general.
Of other 5 players, only Geovanni turned into a decent player.
Other 4 guys were more or less truly horrible in Europe till the end of their careers.

I mean, even Keirrison was banging goals like crazy in Palmeiras in the same, Brasilian league:

I just don't get the logic of majority of you, to be so brave in estimations that this kid looks like the next Xavi and everything, while 5 out 6 former Barca's signing from Brasil turned into total frauds.
I can see replies already: no, no, but those guys were bad and nothing special (lol).

Well, when we paid 50-60M for Geovanni, or 20-30M for Rochemback, we didn't look at it: these guys suck and they will never make it here, but we'll just splash tons of money on them.
No, these guys also looked like real deals back then.
EVERY player looks like a real deal in the moment when we are buying him.

My point one more time: let's slow down and see how will he perform on our training grounds before we call him the next Xavi or sell Paulinho, Gomes and Rakitic to make room for him.

 

[God Serena]

It's odd to me how people can look at the games Barca B plays and easily recognize that no matter how well a player does there, it's still the 2nd/3rd division and doesn't come close to how they'll be challenged in La Liga, but don't seem to possess that same judgement when it comes to the Brazilian league. Arthur "Controlling" in Brazil is just about as impressive and useful as Deulofeu dominating Segunda as a teenager. Whether Arthur makes it as a legitimate quality player is up in the air, but he's far more likely to be taking the place of Denis on the bench, than he is to be finding his way into our starting XI.

 

[serghei]

Both the skeptics and the ultra-positives are just as right and wrong depending on so many varying factors that it's pointless to even get into these debates. Plenty of arguments in both ways. I happen to know many people who were sure Neymar was just another buffoon from Brazil who's gonna fail big time in Europe. Turned out he was great and destined for success.

BBZ will just post the same thing no matter the talent of the player. He'll be right in some cases, wrong in others. Since you never know for sure which player has the will and the mindset to make it (it's not even about talent and skill most of the time), it's better as a fan to be positive when there are signs that give you high hopes regarding players. That seems the most logical thing for me. I see something I like in a player, I am optimistic about his chances of succeeding at a big club, unless there are question marks regarding his character and professionalism.

 

[khaled_a_d]

BBZ aren't really saying he will fail, he is just pointing out to the level of competition and saying people should lower their expectations and comparisons. He is pointing his posts to those compared him to Xavi & said he will bench Rakitic.
I mean there is nothing really wrong in that, he didn't say he will fail and gave him credit for being talented and looking good in Brazil, only thing I won't like is he is putting too much effort when those who exaggerated in this case aren't many tbh.

 

[Co0ter]

Yes.
Those 4 and 1004 others who didn't make it since their league is weak.

It doesn't mean that a player is bad, it just means that it is hard to make any conclusions based on these games.
It is the same as drawing conclusions from CDR matches against a 3rd div team or from friendlies against a Polish 2nd div team in July.

Since I am coming from a country with a way weaker league than European top 5 countries, I know what I am talking about.
I have seen 100s of players who look good or excellent in a weaker leagues only to turn into total frauds or flops in bigger leagues or big clubs.

2 years ago, I had really high hopes that this player is a real deal and a future winger/attacker and a key player in some of top European clubs:

As you can see in this video, in a weaker league, he was dominating easily.
When he came to Juve, he turned into a player who played as much as Denis Suarez at Barca.

So, from a player who was totally dominating in a weaker league=>turned into a player who plays only here and there as a sub for 10-20 minutes.
And now he is loaned to a German league. (Ok, he was injured this season, but still, the point stands).

Out of 10 guys from weaker leagues, there will be 1-2 guys who will be BOTH good in a weak league and then they will be equally as good in a big league also.
But there will be other 8-9 guys who will be good only in a weaker league where the defenders are weaker and where you have tons of free space and time to do whatever you want when you have the ball.
In a big league, they won't get any space and they will be tackled and surrounded by 2-3 players all the time and majority of guys are never able to reach the top level of top divisions in top5 countries.

England is supposed to be a top 2 league and mostly English players play in it and they are mostly bad. Even the "good" ones are more hype than anything. Brazil might not be a "top" league but they produce way better players, and more often, than most top leagues considered better.

 

[God Serena]

England is supposed to be a top 2 league and mostly English players play in it and they are mostly bad. Even the "good" ones are more hype than anything. Brazil might not be a "top" league but they produce way better players, and more often, than most top leagues considered better.

But performing well in the Premier League is a much higher indicator of quality than performing well in the Brazilian league against teams that bad. Not really sure what your point is.

 

[Co0ter]

The point is clear and quite easy to understand.

English players are the worst players in their own league. Who are the top players in the EPL? Yea. Quite simple.

 

[Raketa10]

BBZ aren't really saying he will fail, he is just pointing out to the level of competition and saying people should lower their expectations and comparisons. He is pointing his posts to those compared him to Xavi & said he will bench Rakitic.
I mean there is nothing really wrong in that, he didn't say he will fail and gave him credit for being talented and looking good in Brazil, only thing I won't like is he is putting too much effort when those who exaggerated in this case aren't many tbh.

To be fair BBZ posts are so long that actually no one knows what he wanted to say since 90% of us don't have time or desire to read posts containing 85115618436185461846 lines.

 

[Joan]

To be fair BBZ posts are so long that actually no one knows what he wanted to say since 90% of us don't have time or desire to read posts containing 85115618436185461846 lines.

I usually read his posts.

 

[BBZ8800]

To be fair BBZ posts are so long that actually no one knows what he wanted to say since 90% of us don't have time or desire to read posts containing 85115618436185461846 lines.

[MENTION=2258]Hamzah[/MENTION] and [MENTION=20420]God Serena[/MENTION] lately turned from guys who believed in hype into a more cautious guys.
So, there is a hope for this world

Slightly offtopic, my opinion is that in general in a real life, majority of people get more and more cautious in every aspect of life as they get older.
I mean, when I was 15 or 18, I also believed that:
1. every single new youngster is the next big thing. You just need to give them minutes, a good coach and some chances and they will all turn into a next gen leaders... But it didn't turn out that way, of course.
2. I didn't think that any girl would cheat on you, if you are good towards her.
3. I didn't mean that a friend would turn a back on you, if you are good towards him.
4. I didn't think that someone would steal from you and similar
5. I didn't think that someone would lie on purpose, spreading fake news and doing any bad things in general. Why would someone do that?

But as you get older, you see 100s of bad stories in your life and in lives of people around you.
No offense to anyone, but my feeling is that 90% of posters here who are overly optimistic about EVERY SINGLE signing and about almost EVERY SINGLE Bteam player, like KingMessi in the past, or XxxKonan currently and similar, there is no way that they are older than let's say 25 years.
Again, no offense to anyone and I am not trying to attack anyone, but I just "see" (too much) of youthful optimism is those posts and imo that is related with poster's real life and real life age.

On the other hand, I don't have to ask some posters whether they are aged 30+ since you can see it from their posts and much more "negative" and "cautious" approach on signings, future, estimations and on views in general.
For example, Barcaman (Bojan), Dakt, Vlad, Khaled, TrickyKid, Ursegor etc.
We may not agree on ALL signings and all players, but majority of them trashed 1-2-5 youngsters and are cautious in general and aren't buying the hype on anyone easily.

Ok, I am sure that there are some guys here over 30+ who are hyped about every single young player here, but still, from what I have seen in real life till now, 90% of people get way more cautious in every aspect of life as they age.
So, sorry if some of us are too negative sometimes, but I just can't jump on a train and believe that every single signing is the next big thing (Mina, Arthur, Marlon, Semedo, Dembele, any player whom we buy).

When replying to posts like this, I always remember Hollywood movies which we watched as kids and which said: if you try hard enough, ANY of you can turn into a world class footballer, a famous actor, a famous singer, a famous model, insert any random thing which you dreamed of. You can achieve everything, you can do anything, the world is yours, you can CHANGE the world, you just have to try hard, lol.
Then, when you get older, you see that it is not enough ONLY to "try hard" to be successful.
Since other 1000 people around you will also try hard. And in the end, out of 1000 of you who tried hard and followed their dreams, only 1-10 will make it (in a way how you dreamed of).
So, some "try hard guys" will make it, as in movies, but other 990 guys out of 1000 will fail, even though they tried and worked hard. That's life.
When I say fail, they won't turn into failures, but just that their life and achievements won't get even close to that what Hollywood movies promised or what we dreamed of as a 13 or 15 years old kids.

Again, sorry for preaching and offtopic, but this is why me and some of us (I guess that they look the same on these things), can't just jump and say:
Oh yeah, Mina is the next big thing.
We'll say=well, from everything we have seen and learned in life, he probably won't make it. But let's give a guy a chance, maybe he will be one of those rare who will be good for Barca.

Again, imo, the same is with Arthur and everyone.
I am not actually hating on Arthur. I would like that he is a little taller and faster for my taste, though.
But he does possess some skills.
Now, let's slow down and see how will his set of skills, his mental strength, his injury proneness, his professionalism, his ability to adapt to a life in Europe and to a different club=work and click.

What we have seen till now from Arthur is just 20-30% of obstacles which he will face until he will turn into a Barca's level of a player.

Peace and hugs to everyone, guys

 

[FCBfan22]

Well, a lot of media (especially the UK ones that tend to extremly overhype things) is saying that Arthur is the naext Xavi, the next Iniesta etc...

I think he doesn't need to be. We are all excited when we sign a new player and believe he is the next big thing. I am guilty of that too. With Arthur, I just hope that he can be a solid controling midfirlder, not the second coming of Xavi. That would be enough, since our second string of midfielders (minus Paulinho and Coutinho) is shambles. If he turns out better than Gomes, Denis and Vidal, I'll consider him a successful signing.

 

[MessiCam]

I will say it again seeing as though it has become a thing.

Given a proper run, he will bench Rakitic. And it won’t even take that long. A few months... Max.

 

[Barcaman]

I will say it again seeing as though it has become a thing.

Given a proper run, he will bench Rakitic. And it won’t even take that long. A few months... Max.

As if playing in Brazil and playing in Spain is the same.

 

[MessiCam]

As if playing in Brazil and playing in Spain is the same.

I didn’t say it is. I have watched Arthur play on numerous occasions and there is something about him. If Valverde gives him a fair shake then he will bench Rakitic. Of that I have no doubt whatsoever.