21 - Frenkie de Jong

[Rory]

He's been mostly average with a dozen or so poor performances and a small handful of good/very good performances. I'm a big fan of his but he has to be able to play at a good enough level even when not in his optimal conditions. We also can't afford him that excuse of 'it's not the right system for him/players around him' when almost every player that plays for a top 6 club in the top leagues would perform far better than their current level if they were in their most optimal tactical setup.

He's got his former national team manager who was getting good performances out of his for the netherlands, so the tactical side of things he can't be given that excuse. Physically he's supposedly the fittest in the team so we can't say fitness coaches aren't doing a good enough job FOR HIM. He's playing in a double pivot in a 4-2-3-1 formation with players that work hard bar messi. These conditions should be enough to get better performances out of him.

In those freeze frames above both of them could move into the space. Messi as the attacker should be the first one to do it. Given that he doesn't and de jong sees this and then passes to messi he himself should be looking to move into that space for the 1-2. We can't just give de jong excuses of "That's not his job". De jongs sudden runs forward into space are one of the things that made him the best midfielder in the ucl with ajax.

I believe he will come good and that the quality around him is affecting him but that doesn't excuse his slow decision making, hanging onto the ball and giving a chance away at the edge of the box, misplacing basic passes. He needs to step up

 

[Richard.H]

If you guys think De Jong doesn't have it, sell him to Bayern and watch him be the best midfielder in that team. Or Liverpool. He'd boss it.

Even Lenglet would look like prime Pique at Bayern probably. Just a well oiled machine with each piece knowing their function.

 

[serghei]

Even Lenglet would look like prime Pique at Bayern probably. Just a well oiled machine with each piece knowing their function.

That's what we need to implement. Each player knowing their function. Or we'll turn every top signing we make into a scape-goat candidate. What Bayern have going atm is basically a well functioning team. Nothing too fancy. It looks incredible because so many elite clubs are in an absolute mess.

 

[Rory]

In reality we should have had 200m+ in the bank to start buying the right players to fit with him, Partey going to Arsenal is a joke and I feel that sort of player next to him would work well. De jong's unwillingness to go forward at times probably stems from lack of confidence in the defence/busquets to deal with a counter should he lose the ball. Still that's not an excuse for a lot of what has made his performances poor, just a thought

 

[Riordon]

When Frenkie make a run with the ball you have three players in frontline just standing next to him and waiting for the ball. Dozens of situations when Messi should make a run but instead want the ball + Frenkie to make the run while he need to cover ground for him aswell. Ridiculous.

If you dont think Frenkie is great watch him for Holland two weeks ago against Bosnia and Italy.

Frenkie is the least of our problems.

 

[Luftstalag14]

Come on guys, yes Bayern is the best (certainly the most consistent) team right now and Flick has done helluva job (certainly better than Kovac) but let's not go overboard. They too have problems and it hasn't been all that great and rosy for them either.

Our problem seems to be our players are not physically prepared enough to sustain today's games and tactically we have been a mess. It is not so much about how great Bayern is (yes they are at the moment, relatively) but really how bad we have been.

 

[serghei]

When Frenkie make a run with the ball you have three players in frontline just standing next to him and waiting for the ball. Dozens of situations when Messi should make a run but instead want the ball + Frenkie to make the run while he need to cover ground for him aswell. Ridiculous.

If you dont think Frenkie is great watch him for Holland two weeks ago against Bosnia and Italy.

Frenkie is the least of our problems.

Exactly right. You just overburden him with a plethora of problems that are not his job to solve. Team problems which need to be well regulated by tactics from the manager.

 

[Rory]

Bosnia and Italy are not elite international sides, national teams are far below the quality of club sides these days (something I've seen many people who will disagree with this point say themselves) so it's like saying he played great against Bosnia = Levante level at a push and this current Italy is probably Villareal level.

Frenkie plays a lot more on the left hand side so it's not all Messi's fault. He definitely contributes to not allowing Frenkie to play in his optimum conditions though. But as I said above a lot of his mistakes/poor performances have come from giving the ball away cheaply or dawdling on the ball and not giving a simple forward pass when it's on.

He'll be back to amazing Frenkie when we buy an actual number 9 who stretches the play and a proper box to box ball winner is next to him. Until then he needs to be better than he has been.

 

[serghei]

In those freeze frames above both of them could move into the space. Messi as the attacker should be the first one to do it. Given that he doesn't and de jong sees this and then passes to messi he himself should be looking to move into that space for the 1-2. We can't just give de jong excuses of "That's not his job". De jongs sudden runs forward into space are one of the things that made him the best midfielder in the ucl with ajax.

That's the issue. De Jong in a double pivot has many defensive roles. So when he makes a forward move, he abandons that role. Because if the ball is lost, he won't be back in time (not physically possible) to cover his zone. So, who's fault is going to be when some pass is misplaced and he is caught upfront, while likes of Modric cut through our DM area like a hot knife through butter. Because, that position has been taken by Messi to do his thing on the ball. And we know how much of a presence Messi is defensively when shit hits the fan so to speak.

That sort of stuff is the definition of fluid football. And fluid football is only possible when you have multiple players sharing the same profile, so when they exchange positions (which is what you propose, Messi and De Jong exchanging roles), both of them could supply the same roles both in possession, and, even more important, in defensive transition. Because we also know Messi likes to play risky balls because he is so confident in his great ability (no pun intended).

The we'll hear how crazy De Jong is because he doesn't respect his position and wanders like a mad man up front trying to be the hero.

For what you propose to work, you need Messi replaced with a player who also has on the ball ability but is much superior defensively. Like a Thiago Alcantara. Or a Xavi. High workrate players (11 - 12km a game players) who will follow-up defensively and get the job done, and won't ball watch when something bad happens.

That's why Messi can't play alone deep and needs babysitters. Too weak defensively (doesn't care to do it) and too risky with his passes and dribbles in hot areas, key zones for blocking counters.

 

[vegitot]

When Frenkie make a run with the ball you have three players in frontline just standing next to him and waiting for the ball. Dozens of situations when Messi should make a run but instead want the ball + Frenkie to make the run while he need to cover ground for him aswell. Ridiculous.

If you dont think Frenkie is great watch him for Holland two weeks ago against Bosnia and Italy.

Frenkie is the least of our problems.

He is normal vs Bosnia and only great vs Italy.

He is inconsistent here.

 

[Rory]

That's the issue. De Jong in a double pivot has many defensive roles. So when he makes a forward move, he abandons that role. Because if the ball is lost, he won't be back in time (not physically possible) to cover his zone. So, who's fault is going to be when some pass is misplaced and he is caught upfront, while likes of Modric cut through our DM area like a hot knife through butter. Because, that position has been taken by Messi to do his thing on the ball. And we know how much of a presence Messi is defensively when shit hits the fan so to speak.

That sort of stuff is the definition of fluid football. And fluid football is only possible when you have multiple players sharing the same profile, so when they exchange positions (which is what you propose, Messi and De Jong exchanging roles), both of them could supply the same roles both in possession, and, even more important, in defensive transition. Because we also know Messi likes to play risky balls because he is so confident in his great ability (no pun intended).

The we'll hear how crazy De Jong is because he doesn't respect his position and wanders like a mad man up front trying to be the hero.

For what you propose to work, you need Messi replaced with a player who has on the ball ability but is much superior defensively. Like a Thiago Alcantara.

I actually addressed why I think he's hesitant to go forward "De jong's unwillingness to go forward at times probably stems from lack of confidence in the defence/busquets to deal with a counter should he lose the ball."

I wasn't saying De jong should be expected to do that sort of move every time, just that it was also a possibility and we shouldn't draw such narrow conclusions from one still frame. For example if he runs into that space maybe he drags the two closest to him opening better passing lanes to the players to his left. I also primarily laid the blame at Messi's feet for that move

 

[messi2140]

Even if you ignore the attacking phase when we have the ball , it seems like the guy always has a mistake in him in our half. Last season I didn't mind since he was forced to play all over the place , but now he has a manager where he played his best games under him + he is playing in his ideal position. Yet this season he is still very shaky and I honestly wouldn't mind benching him for Puig as a wake-up call.

 

[malvolio]

I think of him as the good guy, that wants to help and do good but ultimately fails. Naive player with a way lower ceiling than Busquets

 

[serghei]

I actually addressed why I think he's hesitant to go forward "De jong's unwillingness to go forward at times probably stems from lack of confidence in the defence/busquets to deal with a counter should he lose the ball."

I wasn't saying De jong should be expected to do that sort of move every time, just that it was also a possibility and we shouldn't draw such narrow conclusions from one still frame. For example if he runs into that space maybe he drags the two closest to him opening better passing lanes to the players to his left. I also primarily laid the blame at Messi's feet for that move

But the logic is that if he did it at his previous team, and does it at his NT regularly, and doesn't do it with us, it's because we are not setting properly. And the reason why we are not setting properly, in my opinion, is because the team's overall trajectories and movements are muddled. Nobody really moves in a way that is shared, and understood by his teammates. Some player will do something at some point, but the teammates near him don't understand how that should affect their position, or how should they adjust. Simply because movements are not a consequence of what is planned and shared in tactical sessions and transmitted from manager to players, but simply the individual initiative of X or Y. And when you put an entire offensive plan to what X or Y wants to do, you're fucked.

 

[snowy]

That's the issue. De Jong in a double pivot has many defensive roles. So when he makes a forward move, he abandons that role. Because if the ball is lost, he won't be back in time (not physically possible) to cover his zone. So, who's fault is going to be when some pass is misplaced and he is caught upfront, while likes of Modric cut through our DM area like a hot knife through butter. Because, that position has been taken by Messi to do his thing on the ball. And we know how much of a presence Messi is defensively when shit hits the fan so to speak.

That sort of stuff is the definition of fluid football. And fluid football is only possible when you have multiple players sharing the same profile, so when they exchange positions (which is what you propose, Messi and De Jong exchanging roles), both of them could supply the same roles both in possession, and, even more important, in defensive transition. Because we also know Messi likes to play risky balls because he is so confident in his great ability (no pun intended).

The we'll hear how crazy De Jong is because he doesn't respect his position and wanders like a mad man up front trying to be the hero.

For what you propose to work, you need Messi replaced with a player who also has on the ball ability but is much superior defensively. Like a Thiago Alcantara. Or a Xavi. High workrate players (11 - 12km a game players) who will follow-up defensively and get the job done, and won't ball watch when something bad happens.

That's why Messi can't play alone deep and needs babysitters. Too weak defensively (doesn't care to do it) and too risky with his passes and dribbles in hot areas, key zones for blocking counters.

You just described Camavinga! He'd be perfect for that babysitter role. It's basically what he does at Rennes where the entire team are lil'Messi wannabees but with 0.000001% of the talent. Whatever hero solo stunts they attempt, Cama always got their back and acts as a safety net.

Never seen a more unselfish player. Literally plays with zero waste and it's so weird cuz he's got better attacking technique and savvy than any other player. Well to keep it real, there's Gboho and Doku who are also pretty good in 1v1s but they lack the Vinga's vision.

With him on board, Frenkie's production would improve by leaps and bounds. He'd finally have a positional maestro always in the right place for easy 1-2s + in Rennes, when Nzonzi prowls upfront, Cama immediately goes back to provide cover. Dude's a freakin genius!