ASordidGod
New member
I don't know that we're signing him at all. Ajax don't want to sell.
21 - Frenkie de Jong
- Thread starter DonAK
- Start date
I don't know that we're signing him at all. Ajax don't want to sell.
Well if we throw 50m+ at them they might not be able to refuse. The question is, do we want to spend that kind of money on a player that unproven and is it good for his development to come to Barca right now. For the first part i might do it ,but i still think it is too early for him to come to Barca. And if we spend money on getting him next summer we won't be able to afford Pjanic/Thiago. So it is a risk.
Andrew M
New member
Forget Pjanic. That is not happening
Thank god for that. Can someone explain to me where Pjanic would fit, especially in the starting 11 (hes too expensive as a squad player). He looks exactly like Rakitic in style (deep lying playmaker), whos best quality are long balls. Busquets, Rakitic and him sound suicidal to me. Maybe Im wrong about his playing style - if so enlighten me^^
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Its a risk, and 50m for a player from the Dutch league is looking quite insane, tbh. On the other hand, the guy is 21 and does he really need another season in that bad league to develop? Or will that be a year of stagnation instead. He's at an age where he should absolutely be ready to take the next step. His style is certainly far more mature than most players, even 30 year olds.
BBZ8800
Senior Member
I have one remark, as always
He is playing a lot of forward through passes in this video.
But majority of them are dumb passes where he gets his teammates into "troubles".
So, for example, if you have the ball (Xavi/De Jong):
1. and if you can play a safe sideway pass to a player who is free and who can receive the ball easily
2. or, you can play a forward pass to a player who stands with his back faced to a goal and is surrounded by 3 opponents
You won't get much with an option 1, but your team will not lose the ball.
With a option no2, it may seem as if you tried something risky instead of playing safepasses, but your will just force your teammate to pass the ball immidiately back to you since he is facing the goal with his back and he is surrounded by three players.
Also, his throughpasses in this match are not "soft" and easy to receive.
They are quite strong, even slightly too strong.
I have to admit that I haven't watched De Jong before, but now, after posts how he is a mix of Cruijff/Ronald De Boer/Xavi/Modric/Iniesta in one, I will watch his matches and highlights.
Aynway, this thing which I posted above is not something which can't be fixed.
But he needs a coach who will tell him: ok, kid, don't try too hard, you don't need to play a forward pass in EVERY single opportunity and getting your teammates in tough positions.
Wait for a perfect moment to play a deadly through pass. (Riquelme used to play a through pass in every single action and he was killing Barca's possession game since every pass was a deadly chance, or more likely: lost ball).
So, calm down Riquelme/Frenkie. Play 3 safepasses and then ONE forward pass in the right moment. You can't play 10 forward passes in a row.
Again, I haven't watched him too much, but in this video, imo, he is slightly "trying too hard".
Analogy would be: when Dembele or some attacker is eager and wants to please the crowd and media, and then doesn't play simple passes, but tries crazy dribbles and fancy tricks in every single action, and ending losing too many balls.
Now, please guys, check this video one more time and check:
1. how often he is passing a ball to a teammate surrounded by 2-3 defenders (Xavi wasn't doing that thing)
2. how his thorugh-passes are slightly too fast/too strong and are sometimes hard to control for his teammates. And when they finally do control the ball, defenders are already around that receiver.
3. how his teammates are often forced to pass the ball back to him since he gave them the ball in a position where they can't do too much with the ball (Xavi wasn't doing that, he knew 3-4 moves in advance and whether it is worth to pass to someone)
4. in general, in some actions, his TEAM is in a worse position than before he made a pass (Ajax has the ball, and are in control. FDJ tries something, the receiver is dispossessed right away or he passes the ball back to FDJ or other players, but a team is now in a worse position than the original FDJ's pass).
Talent is here, but a LOT of tactical and IQ learning will be needed before coming to Barca's Champions league level.
** Not all of his passes are bad, though.
Some are good sidepasses, some are good through balls to a free teammate.
Some are very bad/illogical.
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I might have an unhealthy obsession with him, but he looks like a proper worldclass talent. His football just looks natural and he oozes that confidence/arrogance thats needed to succeed (reminds me of Cruyff). I never had that feeling with other "worldclass" talents like Cabellos or Fabian Ruiz (Halilovic and Odegaard fot that matter as well).
I think the board still wants to sign a box-to-box/ballcarrying midfielder, a player type we are currently lacking, which explains the interest in Rabiot (and Nzonzi?) and the restraint regarding Thiago. So, I agree, just take the risk (easy to say) and get de Jong (plus his passing looks insanely good).
Xaviniesta
Senior Member
1. Context matters. This was a Champions League qualifier, at home, so the away team was always going to sit back and have Ajax midfielders marked by 2-3 players each. Context also explains why De Jong was always trying to pass it forward...because the more you move the ball forward, the more likely you will create the chances to score. A higher aggregate margin is something that is preferred if you want to qualify to the next round. On another note, the manager might have requested De Jong to make more forward passes than usual in this type of game. You never know
2. His passes also depend largely on the player on the receiving end (how good their first touch is, ability to control the ball, etc). A lot of these players are young like De Jong, so they obviously will have flaws in their game just like him. Not to mention, in a lot of the passes, De jong's teammates were sprinting towards the ball as it came to them, which affected their touch.
3&4. Again, these things also depend on his teammates ability. Plus, what you're saying always happens in every match anyways. Some passes will lead the team to a better position, and others wont. Fair to say that the majority of De Jong's passes are mostly the former and not the latter. He is doing more than enough for someone not playing in his natural position.
De Jong has the IQ to know when to make the passes. A very slow but clear example of this is at 1:13 in the video. His ability to process is much faster than that. However, he still has a lot to learn like you said.
If you watch more games of him you will realize this is the player all his team-mates look to pass to. Just like Messi in a way. He will be even better when he moves to midfield.
Edit: Turns out that video showed only his forward passes. Here is a longer video if you're interested
[youtube]pjqSqps-soc[/youtube]
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YodaMaster
Member
I have one remark, as always
He is playing a lot of forward through passes in this video.
But majority of them are dumb passes where he gets his teammates into "troubles".
So, for example, if you have the ball (Xavi/De Jong):
1. and if you can play a safe sideway pass to a player who is free and who can receive the ball easily
2. or, you can play a forward pass to a player who stands with his back faced to a goal and is surrounded by 3 opponents
You won't get much with an option 1, but your team will not lose the ball.
With a option no2, it may seem as if you tried something risky instead of playing safepasses, but your will just force your teammate to pass the ball immidiately back to you since he is facing the goal with his back and he is surrounded by three players.
Also, his throughpasses in this match are not "soft" and easy to receive.
They are quite strong, even slightly too strong.
I have to admit that I haven't watched De Jong before, but now, after posts how he is a mix of Cruijff/Ronald De Boer/Xavi/Modric/Iniesta in one, I will watch his matches and highlights.
Aynway, this thing which I posted above is not something which can't be fixed.
But he needs a coach who will tell him: ok, kid, don't try too hard, you don't need to play a forward pass in EVERY single opportunity and getting your teammates in tough positions.
Wait for a perfect moment to play a deadly through pass. (Riquelme used to play a through pass in every single action and he was killing Barca's possession game since every pass was a deadly chance, or more likely: lost ball).
So, calm down Riquelme/Frenkie. Play 3 safepasses and then ONE forward pass in the right moment. You can't play 10 forward passes in a row.
Again, I haven't watched him too much, but in this video, imo, he is slightly "trying too hard".
Analogy would be: when Dembele or some attacker is eager and wants to please the crowd and media, and then doesn't play simple passes, but tries crazy dribbles and fancy tricks in every single action, and ending losing too many balls.
Now, please guys, check this video one more time and check:
1. how often he is passing a ball to a teammate surrounded by 2-3 defenders (Xavi wasn't doing that thing)
2. how his thorugh-passes are slightly too fast/too strong and are sometimes hard to control for his teammates. And when they finally do control the ball, defenders are already around that receiver.
3. how his teammates are often forced to pass the ball back to him since he gave them the ball in a position where they can't do too much with the ball (Xavi wasn't doing that, he knew 3-4 moves in advance and whether it is worth to pass to someone)
4. in general, in some actions, his TEAM is in a worse position than before he made a pass (Ajax has the ball, and are in control. FDJ tries something, the receiver is dispossessed right away or he passes the ball back to FDJ or other players, but a team is now in a worse position than the original FDJ's pass).
Talent is here, but a LOT of tactical and IQ learning will be needed before coming to Barca's Champions league level.
** Not all of his passes are bad, though.
Some are good sidepasses, some are good through balls to a free teammate.
Some are very bad/illogical.
Blaming a player because he makes forward passes while praising Rakitic aka Mr. BackWardsPass himself.
Sometimes I honestly believe that you are just trolling everyone here. At least made me laugh.
Raketa10
Senior Member
I have one remark, as always
He is playing a lot of forward through passes in this video.
But majority of them are dumb passes where he gets his teammates into "troubles".
So, for example, if you have the ball (Xavi/De Jong):
1. and if you can play a safe sideway pass to a player who is free and who can receive the ball easily
2. or, you can play a forward pass to a player who stands with his back faced to a goal and is surrounded by 3 opponents
You won't get much with an option 1, but your team will not lose the ball.
With a option no2, it may seem as if you tried something risky instead of playing safepasses, but your will just force your teammate to pass the ball immidiately back to you since he is facing the goal with his back and he is surrounded by three players.
Also, his throughpasses in this match are not "soft" and easy to receive.
They are quite strong, even slightly too strong.
I have to admit that I haven't watched De Jong before, but now, after posts how he is a mix of Cruijff/Ronald De Boer/Xavi/Modric/Iniesta in one, I will watch his matches and highlights.
Aynway, this thing which I posted above is not something which can't be fixed.
But he needs a coach who will tell him: ok, kid, don't try too hard, you don't need to play a forward pass in EVERY single opportunity and getting your teammates in tough positions.
Wait for a perfect moment to play a deadly through pass. (Riquelme used to play a through pass in every single action and he was killing Barca's possession game since every pass was a deadly chance, or more likely: lost ball).
So, calm down Riquelme/Frenkie. Play 3 safepasses and then ONE forward pass in the right moment. You can't play 10 forward passes in a row.
Again, I haven't watched him too much, but in this video, imo, he is slightly "trying too hard".
Analogy would be: when Dembele or some attacker is eager and wants to please the crowd and media, and then doesn't play simple passes, but tries crazy dribbles and fancy tricks in every single action, and ending losing too many balls.
Now, please guys, check this video one more time and check:
1. how often he is passing a ball to a teammate surrounded by 2-3 defenders (Xavi wasn't doing that thing)
2. how his thorugh-passes are slightly too fast/too strong and are sometimes hard to control for his teammates. And when they finally do control the ball, defenders are already around that receiver.
3. how his teammates are often forced to pass the ball back to him since he gave them the ball in a position where they can't do too much with the ball (Xavi wasn't doing that, he knew 3-4 moves in advance and whether it is worth to pass to someone)
4. in general, in some actions, his TEAM is in a worse position than before he made a pass (Ajax has the ball, and are in control. FDJ tries something, the receiver is dispossessed right away or he passes the ball back to FDJ or other players, but a team is now in a worse position than the original FDJ's pass).
Talent is here, but a LOT of tactical and IQ learning will be needed before coming to Barca's Champions league level.
** Not all of his passes are bad, though.
Some are good sidepasses, some are good through balls to a free teammate.
Some are very bad/illogical.
He is a 21y old player, of course he is not a finished product. This is the reason why I said he won’t contribute much in his first year but his talent is undeniable. This is olso the reason why I said that we need ONE experienced midfielder right now who can contribute immediately and De Jong should come next summer. That being said he needs to start playing as midfielder ASAP ar all of this won’t matter.
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BBZ8800
Senior Member
Blaming a player because he makes forward passes while praising Rakitic aka Mr. BackWardsPass himself.
Sometimes I honestly believe that you are just trolling everyone here. At least made me laugh.
If a player plays 20 sideway passes out of 20=he is not good
If a player plays 20 out of 20 forward passes and losing balls in lots of them=he is an idiot.
What Barca needs is a player who plays 15 sidepasses and 5 forward passes in the right moment.
For example, when Messi gets the ball, he don't dribble or play forward in every attempt.
Imagine if Messi would have tried to dribble past 5 players every time when he would get the ball.
His name wouldn't be Messi but Adama then.
So, dribbling in every single action is not a good thing.
Passing forward in every single action, is usually not good.
*Xaviniesta, 2nd video is less try hard, true.
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YodaMaster
Member
So you really thought De Jong only plays forward ? It's a highlight video dude.
If a player plays 20 out of 20 forward passes and they're all perfect, he's a genius.
In De Jong's case, he has a weird CB/DM role. CB have to play forward and it's easier for them cause they have more spaces generally.
Let's imagine that De Jong plays in midfield and does only forward passes like in the video, even there I don't see a problem. The passes he gives to his teammates in the video are good. It's not his fault that his teammates can't resist pressure or find empty spaces. Believe me if he makes those passes to Messi while Messi is in the opponent's last 30 meters, it would be deadly since Messi can resist pressure, turn around and play forward quickly. Not only Messi, all the world class offensive players are/should be capable of doing so.
There's nothing wrong about De Jong in the video, only good stuff actually. The video shows that he's not affraid to play forward and that he's crazily good at doing so. Of course a controlling midfielder needs to do all kind of passes, not only forward.
But I prefer a guy who plays forward passes a bit too often with a good success rate than a player who plays backward/sideway consistently. No risk no reward that's why it's better to have a too risky guy than a coward.
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