11 - Ousmane Dembélé - V1

[Joan]

Same discussion. Different thread. Nothing do with Dembele.

If you want to go through the same things over and over, move to an appropriate thread. Just a suggestion.

 

[serghei]

Before that La Liga was not definitively above English or Italian football as it is now. After the retirement of Messi it will return to what it was. A league largely dominated by Madrid.

Barca has won more league titles than Madrid in the last 30 years.

 

[Jair Ventura]

Barca has won more league titles than Madrid in the last 30 years.

Because Barca has dominated since Lionel Messi came onto the scene.

 

[Judoman]

But imo, if someone thinks that Barca was always Barca and that La liga was always like a current La Liga, imo, you are wrong.
In that sense, times will probably change in the future.

First of all, let s not mix national teams with league/club talk. Croatia has more success in WC than England in the last 20 years and your league is funny compared to PL.

I remember the history and the Serie A era. Milan with the dutch trio and latter with Boban, Savicevic, Weah, Shevchenko and all those guys. Back than it was the league to watch.
But we also watched Real/Barca/MU/Lpool matches and players wanted to play for these clubs. I doubt very much, that this will change in the near future. A popularity of individual leagues can cycle, but the top tear clubs are
prety much fixed in their prestige.

I do agree, that Messi/CR era/domination is a fluke, but it s not the first time in history that teams dominated CL for a certain period and it s logical that this kind of level is not permanent which
is good for the sport itself. Other than that, statements in my previous post still stand. If we stay in the top 10 club pool (and we will), chances for wininng CL-s are solid. That s all a fan can hope for. Chances.
This is something that a lot of band wagon fans don t understand.

So it doesn t make sence predicting we will not win CL or produce superstars does it? It s just pesimism nothing else.

 

[God Serena]

Because Barca has dominated since Lionel Messi came onto the scene.

So Barca has been dominant essentially since Messi was born, simply because Messi was born.

Makes sense. I myself don't worship him as a god but I can understand those who do.

 

[BBZ8800]

So it doesn t make sence predicting we will not win CL or produce superstars does it? It s just pesimism nothing else.

I am not saying that Barca&Real won't win CLs.
They will.
Just my personal estimation is that Barca will win it once in 8 or 10 years, and not 4 times in 10 years like in 2006-2015.
The same with RM who had 4 out 5 now.

This was an absolute peak of Spanish club football imo, again, due to a lot of factors:
1. Italian league died around 2005'
2. Barca got once in a lifetime generation in La Masia kids Xavi-Iniesta-Messi
3. Messi and CR7, two best scorers ever, played in the same era. And in the same league, creating a huge story/rivalry/fairytale
4. rich oil clubs didn't exist in the moment when Barca/Real gained their momentum and built their teams. If we had Psg/City oil owners in 2008, Messi and Cr7 probably wouldn't play for 10 years in Spain and Real probably wouldn't be able to sign CR7.

About pesimism, this is why I think that this was absolute, once in a lifetime peak of a Spanish league:
Last 10 CLs:
2009: Barca
2010: Inter
2011: Barca
2012: Chelsea
2013: Bayern
2014: Real
2015: Barca
2016: Real
2017: Real
2018: Real

Barca&Real versus the rest of the world: 7:3 in CL titles

Ballon D or winners in the same time:
2008: CR7
2009: Messi
2010: Messi
2011: Messi
2012: Messi
2013: CR7
2014: CR7
2015: Messi
2016: CR7
2017: Cr7

Last 10 years:
Barca and Real versus the world: 10:0

On the other hand:
1956-1959: Ballon D Ors for Barca&Real: 3
1960-1969: Ballon D Ors for Barca&Real: 1
1970-1979: Ballon D Ors for Barca&Real: 2
1980-1989: Ballon D Ors for Barca&Real: 0
1990-1999: Ballon D Ors for Barca&Real: 2
2000-until 2007 (before Messi and CR7): 4

So, in 52 years of European football from 1956 to 2007:
Barca, Ballon D Ors: 6 (Suarez, Cruijff, Cruijff, Stoichkov, Rivaldo, Ronaldinho)
Real Madrid, Baloon D Ors: 6 (Di Stefano, Kopa, Di Stefano, Figo, Ronaldo, Cannavaro)
Cr7 and Messi in the last 10 years: 10 Ballon D Ors

Messi&Cr7 versus 52 years of Barca and Real: 10:12
Also, Barca and Real CL wins in 50 years from 1956 to 2005: 1+10
Barca and Real in the last 13 years: 4+4

So, I wouldn't call this pessimism.
This was an absolute peak of Barca&Real due to Messi, Cr7, Xavi, Iniesta, and Italian financial problems and since oil clubs haven't existed 10 years ago.

I am not saying that Barca and Real will turn into Milan and Inter.
More likely, in 2024, CL will have 8-9 equally as strong teams:
Barca, Real, Psg, Juventus, Bayern, City, Utd, Liverpool, Chelsea (Arsenal or Liverpool).

 

[Potroh]

Just my personal estimation is that Barca will win it once in 8 or 10 years, and not 4 times in 10 years like in 2006-2015.

Your personal agenda seems to be possessing a slight problem, namely that you simply mix up quality with quantity.
Regardless the known statistics, every player or anyone close to the game knows it well that neither World-cups nor European-cups are necessarily won by the best team.
Obviously there's been occasions when THE best team has won, but often it is obvious that it is NOT the best team who is winning the trophies, and it is the very nature of this game.

If for you it is the mere quantitative factor that matters, winning and being on top of the quoted statistics, then you are right. But this game is also about quality and art, and as such the present Barca team is quite much on the top.

Barca has beaten RMadrid 3 times in 3 years, in their own stadium, so statistically speaking it is undoubtedly the better team. Period. Of course if a tournament with a higher rank is the one that really counts or matters, then Madrid is better, because they were lucky enough to win it 3 times in a row.
But that's just the quantity of trophies and not quality.

The players themselves love and crave to collect trophies, as many as possible, but they are not complete idiots not to realize that a championship being won by a lucky goal is less valuable then a 3rd place or anything like that, when they also enjoy playing the game, and not just enjoy winning the game by a bunch of lucky balls and circumstances...

 

[Jair Ventura]

So Barca has been dominant essentially since Messi was born, simply because Messi was born.

Makes sense. I myself don't worship him as a god but I can understand those who do.

La Liga Titles Since ’77-’78

Barcelona - 15
Real Madrid - 16

Last 10 Years, ’07-08 through ’17-18

Real Madrid - 3
Barcelona - 6

Previous 20 Years, ’77-78 through ’97-98

Real Madrid - 9
Barcelona - 6

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Spanish_football_champions

Lionel Messi - 9


Serves me right for taking people at their word.

 

[Donatello]

Spoken like someone who doesn't follow football.

Keep claiming what you want, but the truth is that you don't even have an opinion.

Just a question, Do you think Ligue 1 is in the same league as La Liga, EPL..huh?

La Liga Titles Since ’77-’78

Barcelona - 15
Real Madrid - 16

Last 10 Years, ’07-08 through ’17-18

Real Madrid - 3
Barcelona - 6

Previous 20 Years, ’77-78 through ’97-98

Real Madrid - 9
Barcelona - 6

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Spanish_football_champions

Lionel Messi - 9


Serves me right for taking people at their word.

Genious,

I guess what his point was that Barca were not dominant just because of Messi .

It was because of lot of factors, the Golden generation of La Masia, Guardiola & his philiosopy, Madrid's disarray due to Mourinho & of course having a great player like Messi.

And I knew you won't answer my question because you lack of opinion.

 

[serghei]

Because Barca has dominated since Lionel Messi came onto the scene.

We dominated before Messi's time too during the days of Stoichkov and Romario. We won many league titles in the 1990s.

 

[Judoman]

4. rich oil clubs didn't exist in the moment when Barca/Real gained their momentum and built their teams. If we had Psg/City oil owners in 2008, Messi and Cr7 probably wouldn't play for 10 years in Spain and Real probably wouldn't be able to sign CR7.

There was Chelsea with Abramovich. A kind of oil money club
Anyway, you are complicating. Barca was fortunate to produce the golden generation straight from La Masia. Money wasn t a mayor factor. The biggest signing (Ibra)was sold after 1 season.
Real was always amongst the richest clubs and oil money won t change that. There are also financial rules in play remember?

I am not saying that Barca and Real will turn into Milan and Inter.
More likely, in 2024, CL will have 8-9 equally as strong teams:
Barca, Real, Psg, Juventus, Bayern, City, Utd, Liverpool, Chelsea (Arsenal or Liverpool).

That s just return to the mean and it s common sence. You basicaly said, that big clubs will be the same in 10 years as they are now.
Personaly i think that oil money has a (financial) limit. Perhaps not now, but in 10 years...i wouldn t be surprised.

 

[Laplacian]

Get out of this thread if you want to talk about La Liga or Ligue, it has been derailed for 4 pages now.

 

[Luftstalag14]

What talents, and why isn't anyone buying them?

Real Madrid has been buying many in the last several years.

 

[Garrus]

La Liga Titles Since ’77-’78

Barcelona - 15
Real Madrid - 16

Last 10 Years, ’07-08 through ’17-18

Real Madrid - 3
Barcelona - 6

Previous 20 Years, ’77-78 through ’97-98

Real Madrid - 9
Barcelona - 6

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Spanish_football_champions

Lionel Messi - 9


Serves me right for taking people at their word.

What a deliberately convulted way to display some simple numbers, I’ll make it simple, Since your thick skull can’t process them properly.

1991-1999, A 9 year period, Barca won la liga 6 times, Messi was still a child in Argentina.
2009-2018, A 9 year period, Barca won la liga 7 times, Messi a main Barca player.

Messi made a modest 16% improvement of what we already accomplished between 1991-1999 in la liga, So quit being a slime ball, And learn some math.

 

[El Barcelona]

What a deliberately convulted way to display some simple numbers, I’ll make it simple, Since your thick skull can’t process them properly.

1991-1999, A 9 year period, Barca won la liga 6 times, Messi was still a child in Argentina.
2009-2018, A 9 year period, Barca won la liga 7 times, Messi a main Barca player.

Messi made a modest 16% improvement of what we already accomplished between 1991-1999 in la liga, So quit being a slime ball, And learn some math.

You made a good point.