10 - Lionel Messi - V6

[te amo barca]

Messi's complacency cost him a lot in these last few years. With the power and influence he has, he could have easily removed EV from the club.

 

[serghei]

Yes - he was always mainly the ace of a great team. Not a leader. Never a leader. He doesn't inspire greatness in others. He's more of a guy you want to pass to and watch as he does things nobody would ever be capable of doing. And that will be his legacy - personal success.

Some have seen this from a mile away. If Leo had some sense, he'd either demand even higher wages to exploit the businessmen running this club to the ground and then take his ball and go back to Newell's to retrieve some happiness. It's where he'd be at his happiest. And this was the case for years.

Agree and both disagree with this.

I don't think it's his fault at all. Most managers he worked with in the last 6-7 years used him in a selfish way, to ease their jobs and cut corners. After years and years of doing this, his role in the team changed. He started to receive ball to feet almost non-stop and asked to basically solve plays on his own with his genius. It is not Messi's job to make sure the ball gets to our front three when and how it has to. But somehow it became his job.

The risk with managing a player like Messi is that it is very easy to just give in to him and allow him full freedom, especially if the managers aren't leaders who are keen to implement their own style irrespective of Messi.

In the past he was more organized, and had a clearer role. Wasn't dropping 40m. away from his area of action constantly, just so he can get on the ball and try to be a savior once again, wasn't taking corners on the opposite flank on the left, his role was better sketched and as a result he wasn't as pressured to deliver non-stop because the platform was working. He was the most deadly last third player and everything worked out no matter the opponent, because that version of Barcelona knew what they were playing and know how to do it.

This Barcelona, especially without Neymar to take some of the burden on him, is all Messi. And he can't do it in Europe. He just can't. Parking the bus and hoping Messi creates some magic to score some goals is a terrible tactic away from home.

 

[El Gato]

Agree and both disagree with this.

I don't think it's his fault at all. Most managers he worked with in the last 6-7 years used him in a selfish way, to ease their jobs and cut corners. After years and years of doing this, his role in the team changed. He started to receive ball to feet almost non-stop and asked to basically solve plays on his own with his genius. It is not Messi's job to make sure the ball gets to our front three when and how it has to. But somehow it became his job.

The risk with managing a player like Messi is that it is very easy to just give in to him and allow him full freedom, especially if the managers aren't leaders who are keen to implement their own style irrespective of Messi.

In the past he was more organized, and had a clearer role. Wasn't dropping 40m. away from his area of action constantly, just so he can get on the ball and try to be a savior once again, wasn't taking corners on the opposite flank on the left, his role was better sketched and as a result he wasn't as pressured to deliver non-stop because the platform was working. He was the most deadly last third player and everything worked out because that version of Barcelona knew what they were playing and know how to do it.

This Barcelona, especially without Neymar to take some of the burden on him, is all Messi. And he can't do it in Europe. He just can't.

There is no 'using' or 'managing' a guy like Messi when he will always revert back to the saviour instinct against all logic. Man has proved it again and again that he is there to be used as a weapon.

It must suck so much to be a developing player with him there, because you always know Messi can basically do so little wrong, because he is treated like a God. How do you criticise Messi for a bad pass? Or trying to do too much? This is a problem for players and managers alike. There is no manager that can. There was never a player like him so everyone else in history was beneath him. No way to do it.

He's no leader, he's no captain, he's no teacher, he doesn't know what's best for himself. All you can hope for is that when a guy like him turns up, he has integrity to say enough is enough when team development plan puts him at the centre of things. Leo can't recognise it or won't care. He'll just let his greatness be exploited. To detriment of everything else.

 

[TrueCule]

I remember the days when people on this forum would defend Messi to the end of days despite it being absolutely clear how gullible he is.
Take Messi for Argentina for instance - plays so many tournaments, witnesses multiple coaches, all of them being inept and he just puts his head down, shuts up and tries to do it all himself. Lol, quality decision making. Just lets himself be exploited as often as anybody wants to do it.

Leo has to be the least strategic thinker out of all the GOATs football ever had. If he had a brain, he'd a) quit the NT permanently after the first Copa America fiasco, b) demand even higher wages. Because why not? And c) would work to sack EV if he cared about non-domestic success. But he doesn't, because he earns a bomb and bangs 35 goals in against La Liga teams.

Haha.

What an end to a GOAT career.

His national team career is still not over. He still has Copa to play this year and Argentina is the second favorite to win the competition apart from Brazil. The team is well selected, much better than under Sampaoli. I think that they can really compete this season and that Messi can finally deliver the title back to Argentina.

 

[serghei]

There is no 'using' or 'managing' a guy like Messi when he will always revert back to the saviour instinct against all logic. Man has proved it again and again that he is there to be used as a weapon.

It must suck so much to be a developing player with him there, because you always know Messi can basically do so little wrong, because he is treated like a God. How do you criticise Messi for a bad pass? Or trying to do too much? This is a problem for players and managers alike. There is no manager that can. There was never a player like him so everyone else in history was beneath him. No way to do it.

He's no leader, he's no captain, he's no teacher, he doesn't know what's best for himself. All you can hope for is that when a guy like him turns up, he has integrity to say enough is enough when team development plan puts him at the centre of things. Leo can't recognise it or won't care. He'll just let his greatness be exploited. To detriment of everything else.

And here we get to the part where we disagree. The importance of a top manager. It's rubbish imo to say Messi can't be better handled in the team if a better manager came and took the reigns at Barcelona. It's easy to say this considering since Pep we've been managed by mostly crap managers. Maybe Lucho was a cut above, that's it, but he had other problems and Lucho was just okay, not world class like some other managers in the game.

Mediocre managers have allowed this to happen mostly. This would've never happened if Guardiola stayed for example. Or if we hired another world class manager instead of him. Would never happen under Klopp, or a similar manager who has a clear plan about how to play.

I agree with the problems you mentioned, as I've mentioned them before as well. But disagree nobody can't do anything about them. Surely won't buy that as long as we're constantly managed by managers like Valverde.

And since this board loves yes men who don't upset the veterans and don't mess with the status quo, I guess we'll never know. This board and the average managers they've brought have created the 'problem' Messi, which is visible in CL. Now it's indeed hard to change the mentality, but not impossible if we bring the right man in charge and back him up. Similar to how Laporta backed Pep in 2008 and allowed him to implement some really big & bold changes right from the start. But again, this board lacks this courage. If they had any Valverde would've been long gone by now and some veterans moved on or at least downgraded from sure starter position.

 

[El Gato]

And here we get to the part where we disagree. The importance of a top manager. It's rubbish imo to say Messi can't be better handled in the team if a better manager came and took the reigns at Barcelona. It's easy to say this considering since Pep we've been managed by mostly crap managers. Maybe Lucho was a cut above, that's it, but he had other problems and Lucho was just okay, not world class like some other managers in the game.

Mediocre managers have allowed this to happen mostly. This would've never happened if Guardiola stayed for example. Or if we hired another world class manager instead of him. Would never happen under Klopp, or a similar manager who has a clear plan about how to play.

Yes it would. Guardiola is equally in awe of anything Messi does. What do you think Guardiola would do to stop Messi saviour complex when midfielders aren't pulling their weight? Same with Klopp. Managers have the same inferiority issue trying to manage him as players have. Again - how do you tell Messi to not drop back when it's obvious it makes good things happen with immediate effect? You'll just frustrate him with lack of progress from month-to-month. Look what happened when Lucho tried sticking him to the wing. How long did that last? You need to work with a class all on the same level trying to improve at the same rate. Messi is the A+ worker in a class full of C-grade students, where the students know it and are playing catch up. If they know he is told to not be the A+, it won't help at all because they know he could ace the group project for you with little effort.

I agree it may have been different if you did hire a manager to supress it back in the day, but now damage is done. Messi has a habit that he is too old to break. All you can do is mediate and watch as he wins Ligas with average-to-good team around him.

 

[Havesaks]

Madrid collapsed. Only a fool would expect this to last, given the resources they have and the low spending they had in recent years. They will blow up 300-400m. and upgrade their team in 1 window almost.

Only their rebuilding will be done under 3 time CL winner Zidane, not CL elite bottler Valverde.

It is true that Valverde has won possibly 2 doubles against one of the weakest Madrid version in the last decade. I highly doubt he would beat a Madrid playing near their 2016-2017 level.

We were lucky that Madrid leaders overrated the young talent they had in the likes of Isco and Asensio and didn't sign any start-material players in recent years.

Madrid bought many promising talents while we lost neymar and somehow - surpise surprise - they didnt show up at all, 90 % - and you for sure, dont even doubt that - doomed us from day 1 after neygate and madrid-transfers, and somehow we still can win our second double in a row since that very summer. And for whatever exuces you are going to make up, spare me, in the end of the day, "we were doomed" and that with the very same players which have been labeled as "shit" and a manager who apparently is a retard, despite winning (potentially) 2 doubles while you guys cried a river how barca era was done for it.

We bought Dembele and Coutinho for 300m, and look how that turned out. Its not always that easy to create a winning team, even if you spend big bucks. Chemistry is all, and thats also why we not just get rid of Suarez, Rakitic, Sergio, Alba, ter stegen, pique of whoever you guys want(ed) out because their form have slightly decreased. Football is about consistenty and chemistry and every transfer is a gamble, so even if they buy Pogba, Hazard, Eriksen etc. we dont know jackshit about how they actually would perform and anyway, this madrid team lacks first of all goals, and hazard wont get you that. Zidane is also a big question, now that he actually has to implement starting players into his game, and start something from zero ( more or less ).

People with actually power to make all-important decisions, and probably are the most knowledgable on that area: the club members, all leading players in the lockerroom and the directors... apparently disagree with some fans on a random interforum who circlejerk their passive-aggressive opinions all day long, and somehow convince themselves, that they actually know better than all the parties who actually are involved in the matter and actually have all information at hand to make and have a reasonable opinion on the matter.

 

[serghei]

Yes it would. Guardiola is equally in awe of anything Messi does. What do you think Guardiola would do to stop Messi saviour complex when midfielders aren't pulling their weight? Same with Klopp. Managers have the same inferiority issue trying to manage him as players have. Again - how do you tell Messi to not drop back when it's obvious it makes good things happen with immediate effect? You'll just frustrate him with lack of progress from month-to-month. Look what happened when Lucho tried sticking him to the wing. How long did that last? You need to work with a class all on the same level trying to improve at the same rate. Messi is the A+ worker in a class full of C-grade students, where the students know it and are playing catch up. If they know he is told to not be the A+, it won't help at all because they know he could ace the group project for you with little effort.

I agree it may have been different if you did hire a manager to supress it back in the day, but now damage is done. Messi has a habit that he is too old to break. All you can do is mediate and watch as he wins Ligas with average-to-good team around him.

Midfielders aren't pulling their weight because of the managers as well. Guardiola always established dominant football at every team he went. Did it at Bayern, did it at City. He never had too many issues creating dominating midfields who could pass well and get the ball to the attackers. His no1 issue has been in defense and in attack (in that his teams were wasteful too many times in big games, a thing which has cost him in CL at Barcelona as well).

But as far as midfield is concerned? Pep would never need Messi to drop 40m. away from his position in the last third, to progress the ball in possession. Like Valverde constantly does (maybe because he plays 3DMs behind Messi lol). Pep football gets the ball in dangerous positions at a very good rate. That's where Messi is key and this is the role he shines in. Receive the ball in good positions and do the damage time and time again. That was Messi's role under Pep and that is why his best years were in that period.

No. Great managers don't have inferiority complex. They just know that he is insane quality, and this is always something to praise as that amount of talent and ability is unheard of for most of them. It doesn't mean that they would completely give in to him and abandon their vision. Only managers who have no real vision do that.

 

[Sorin]

Put Pep, Klopp or Pochetino in charge of FC Barcelona in the last few years and you'd see what a strong willed character who is also a great tactical mind would do with such an outlier like Messi. The only one after Pep who was a no non sense kind of guy was Lucho but he was pretty poor at the tactical aspect of management that he isn't in that category. Well, Tito was probably the best balance of both but unfortunately he became ill as soon as he got the job. RIP.

Anyway, my point is the same as serghei's. It's not entirely fair to put all the blame on Messi for the fact that he looks uncoachable. He is set in his ways, it's true, but there's also the fact that the managers he had after Guardiola were some of the most mediocre ones.

To me, a great manager has to have three things.

- Strong character, he should be in fact the leader and no player should have a voice over him. Leadership on the pitch is not more important that this.
- Great tactical mind, duh.
- Charisma. One of the most underrated qualities for a manager. It's no use having the above 2 characteristics if you can't convey it to the players in a way that they will always believe that what they're doing on the pitch is the best way to win.

Just look at the last managers we had and tell me one who meets all 3 of those qualities. Hell, you could argue that Tata Martino had none ffs. Lucho was strong willed but average to poor on the other fronts while Valverde has some tactical acumen(he doesn't even excel at this tbh) but is absolutely garbage at the other 2.

The players had to figure it out themselves for the most part. Unfortunately they have the self awereness of a blind sloth.

 

[serghei]

Also, a player like Messi has ability in abundance, which makes him a lethal player in the last third. What Messi lacked and always will lack, and what makes him an average midfielder, is the ability to gain access on the ball on his own. In other words, he doesn't play himself in, he needs to BE PLAYED in by a teammate. Or, in other words, Xavi's best attributes are Messi's worst. Movement and workrate. Which is why Messi could never be effective playing a deep CM-playmaker like Xavi was.

If we look at a football chance, as 1) access on the ball + 2) ability once in possession, Messi always had difficulties of getting 1) when he had poor passers (and immobile players) around him.

We have had managers post pep who did very little to give Messi 1) while maintaining his position in the last 3rd.

 

[El Gato]

But as far as midfield is concerned? Pep would never need Messi to drop 40m. away from his position in the last third, to progress the ball in possession. Like Valverde constantly does (maybe because he plays 3DMs behind Messi lol). Pep football gets the ball in dangerous positions at a very good rate. That's where Messi is key and this is the role he shines in. Receive the ball in good positions and do the damage time and time again. That was Messi's role under Pep and that is why his best years were in that period.

Current Messi would play in the De Bruyne role which involves dropping back. And with his habits, it'd destroy midfield integrity. But it'd be OK, because he'd win you the league by himself regardless.

 

[serghei]

Current Messi would play in the De Bruyne role which involves dropping back. And with his habits, it'd destroy midfield integrity. But it'd be OK, because he'd win you the league by himself regardless.

Nope. Messi would dispatch one of Mahrez, Sane, Aguero or Sterling.

Probably Aguero, Sterling, Messi would be the trio up front.

 

[El Gato]

Nope. Messi would dispatch one of Mahrez, Sane, Aguero or Sterling.

Probably Aguero, Sterling, Messi would be the trio up front.

Nope he wouldn't. Make no sense having him cut in at 32 years of age. Prime reason why you did the best with Dembele at RW, Suarez ahead and Messi at SS connecting with the midfield 3 and in-form Semedo at RB.

 

[Sorin]

Pep getting rid of midfielders for forwards? What? He'd play midfielders in the goal if he could.

 

[snowy]

Yes it would. Guardiola is equally in awe of anything Messi does. What do you think Guardiola would do to stop Messi saviour complex when midfielders aren't pulling their weight? Same with Klopp. Managers have the same inferiority issue trying to manage him as players have. Again - how do you tell Messi to not drop back when it's obvious it makes good things happen with immediate effect? You'll just frustrate him with lack of progress from month-to-month. Look what happened when Lucho tried sticking him to the wing. How long did that last? You need to work with a class all on the same level trying to improve at the same rate. Messi is the A+ worker in a class full of C-grade students, where the students know it and are playing catch up. If they know he is told to not be the A+, it won't help at all because they know he could ace the group project for you with little effort.

I agree it may have been different if you did hire a manager to supress it back in the day, but now damage is done. Messi has a habit that he is too old to break. All you can do is mediate and watch as he wins Ligas with average-to-good team around him.

Great discussion with Serguei above!

now if only the board & sporting dept. also raised their game to A+ and gathered a squad of A rated players!+ an attack focused creative A rated coach

what a football this dream ensemble could've produced... These guys could've ascended K2 and they barely went up a hill [in terms of Ace Football, not trophies won obviously]

Problem is, Barto operates like a politician, with only an after-though [if any] to Barca beautiful football. He knows that Messi will always save his butt so he never raised his game. I give him credit for MSN, and the upcoming Dutch de's but he could've done so much better. He screwed Leo almost as bad as Don King F'd iron Mike.

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