I need the truth !!!

[Talal]

Hi all

Firstly, Im new her and I love Barca very very very much .

I have alot of friends who like Madrid and always we open arguements about Barcelona and Madrid. SO my question is Did Barca face a big problem with spanish government especially with Franco ???
also Can give me a orginal resources please (if any one do have one of them)

Many Thanks for you and nice to meet all you

[Plip]

Well, I suggest you take a stroll down the official website of Barça. There's a good history section touching the issue.

[Beast]

You Want the truth ..


you can't handle the truth

Yes Franco made problems for everyone , Barca , Realm u name it..
Barca had special focus due to the Catalan nation and the club represented them , my suggestion avoid "Barca " website there are some light books about the Franco relation with football in Spain like Jimmy Burns "Barca people passion " one or Phil Ball "Morbo" and plenty of research made by neutrals and good book store or library will help you

[Plip]

You Want the truth ..


you can't handle the truth

Yes Franco made problems for everyone , Barca , Realm u name it..
Barca had special focus due to the Catalan nation and the club represented them , my suggestion avoid "Barca " website there are some light books about the Franco relation with football in Spain like Jimmy Burns "Barca people passion " one or Phil Ball "Morbo" and plenty of research made by neutrals and good book store or library will help you

Don't be a douche, Beast . Barça's website is a decent source in regards to the issue as a QUICK source. It does only scratch it, yes, but gives some sort of an idea, nevertheless.

[JCCR_FCB]

First of all, welcome to the forum.

Second question: it is a fact that Barça, like catalunya had many problems with Franco's regime. First, Barcelona was "the capital of republic" and opposite of Franco regime and fight against the "nacionalistas" of Franco. When Franco win the Civil War, he punished hard (very hard) Catalunya and most of his principal members (include the former president of Barça - Sunyol - that was killed by members of Franco Nationalists). Include, the symbol of Barça (F.C.B. was changed to a spanish language: Club de Futbol Barcelona - by orders of Franco). And many others things: referees in favour of RM ans many things. Try to buy a book: "Barça: a passion people" by Jimmy Burns, that explain all of this and many things about Barça genesis.

[Beast]

if you think it's anything more then a revisionist sugar coated version of events.
I have read plenty on the subject and a Barca or Real Madrid official version of events is the last thing u want to claim as a source in a debate

First of all, welcome to the forum.

Second question: it is a fact that Barça, like catalunya had many problems with Franco's regime. First, Barcelona was "the capital of republic" and opposite of Franco regime and fight against the "nacionalistas" of Franco. When Franco win the Civil War, he punished hard (very hard) Catalunya and most of his principal members (include the former president of Barça - Sunyol - that was killed by members of Franco Nationalists). Include, the symbol of Barça (F.C.B. was changed to a spanish language: Club de Futbol Barcelona - by orders of Franco). And many others things: referees in favour of RM ans many things. Try to buy a book: "Barça: a passion people" by Jimmy Burns, that explain all of this and many things about Barça genesis.

see Plip this is what i mean by ^^^REVISIONIST ^ version of events

since when was Barcelona the capital of the republic ?
And in case you didn't notice Madrid ,Bilbao & Valencia were also against Franco troops
And it piss my off to see no one mention that Real Madrid lost more board members and a president as well all died under Franco troops ..also Mr. Burns intentionally never explains why Barca was the more successful side under General Franco for a good 16 years
that's why you need to read several sources

[Plip]

if you think it's anything more then a revisionist sugar coated version of events.
I have read plenty on the subject and a Barca or Real Madrid official version of events is the last thing u want to claim as a source in a debate



see Plip this is what i mean by ^^^REVISIONIST ^ version of events

since when was Barcelona the capital of the republic ?
And in case you didn't notice Madrid ,Bilbao & Valencia were also against Franco troops
And it piss my off to see no one mention that Real Madrid lost more board members and a president as well all died under Franco troops ..also Mr. Burns intentionally never explains why Barca was the more successful side under General Franco for a good 16 years
that's why you need to read several sources

Don't bash the revisionists (well, maybe a bit ), bash those whom are too lazy to find out more about things and realize that there are always two sides to the story . Thanks for the book tips by the way, should add on my "to read" -list.

[Tomba11]

Yes most of the people of Madrid and Barcelona were against Franco. It doesn't take much intelligence to see and know why 98% of the inhabitants of Barcelona were against him. And in Madrid the cries were No Pasarán, they will not take Madrid! This could have been legend material if "they" hadn't succeded. Franco's win spurred Italy and Germany to keep up their plans of conquering Europe (and Africa).

It was what happened after the civil war that mattered. It was no problem for Franco's men to find puppets to play roles in government or head of football clubs whether it was in Madrid or Barcelona, but it sure was easier in Madrid. You could not say no to Franco. Tens of thousands were killed after the war in cities and villages all over Spain and buried to be forgotten.

After the war it is believed that the government of General Francisco Franco arranged the executions of 100,000 Republican prisoners. It is estimated that another 35,000 Republicans died in concentration camps in the years that followed the war.

So there were antifascistas in both cities, but as Madrid was the symbol and center of spanish imperialism I don't think anyone doubt that there were more fascist supporters in the capital, specially since Real Madrid became the symbol of the Franco regime. Franco wanted to restore order and make Spain glorious again, one nation under God. And that would mean that the city of Madrid came back into full power again, no more of regionalism and no more bickering from Basques and Catalans.

Spanish fascism was built on three pillars: the church, the landowners and the military,
it was an antimodernist anticapitalistic antisocialistic antidemocratic very conservative and god-fearing movement,
It was easier to win the people back in order in Madrid since the football club Real Madrid obliged to be a part of the propaganda to become a symbol of the Franco regime. It was after all a royal (real) club and it was part of the Madrid establishment before and after the war.

Barcelona was a modernist, capitalist, liberal, europe-oriented business city with a strong anarchosyndicalist hold among the workers.
Now where would you think the opposition against Franco was bigger - before and after the war? Yes, that's right, in Barcelona.

If FCB had any connection with fascists after the war it was only because of playing the part in a game they couldn't win at that time
- and to survive as a club with the price of having a few puppets at the top to obey the orders of Los Falangistas in Madrid.
Yes, it was cowardly but also understandable at that time.


If you're a RM fan you have to accept the RM history and move on. It doesn't make you a fascist.

But there sure are a few of them still at the Bernabeu
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...icle393494.ece
http://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/column...5875-21067121/

Would this happen at Camp Nou 2009?


Edit again.

I found an interesting book at Amazon, I'm thinking of buying it.

White Storm: 100 Years of Real Madrid by Phil Ball

Real Madrid have won 28 league titles, eight European cups, 12 Spanish cups, two UEFA cups and two World Cup Championship titles since the beginning of the 20th century. The clubs story however, is much more than the mere sum of its achievements. There have been legends at every step, and behind the shine of trophies there is the darker side of the club's association with fascism - its role as the pure white ambassador to Franco's jackbooted vision of a centralized Spain. This volume divides the clubs history into six distinct periods - from its founations, through the war years, to the golden period of Di Stefano and Puskas; the "hippie years"; the "Quinta del Buitre" (Butragueno's Gang) and ending with the modern period which dates from the contemporary embodiment of Madridismo - Raul.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/White-Storm-.../dp/1840186348

[JCCR_FCB]

if you think it's anything more then a revisionist sugar coated version of events.
I have read plenty on the subject and a Barca or Real Madrid official version of events is the last thing u want to claim as a source in a debate



see Plip this is what i mean by ^^^REVISIONIST ^ version of events

since when was Barcelona the capital of the republic ?
And in case you didn't notice Madrid ,Bilbao & Valencia were also against Franco troops
And it piss my off to see no one mention that Real Madrid lost more board members and a president as well all died under Franco troops ..also Mr. Burns intentionally never explains why Barca was the more successful side under General Franco for a good 16 years
that's why you need to read several sources

Well Beast, of course Barcelona never was "Capital of Catalunya", but in a certain way, was... the fact is Franco regime wasn't very kind with Catalunya. That is a fact!
But, that is one of many episodes. When I say this, don't mean that RM was the direct beneficiary of this... but the fact is only with the actual King, Catalunya and Barça could both be treated equally like other regions and clubs of Spain!

[Beast]

So there were antifascistas in both cities, but as Madrid was the symbol and center of spanish imperialism I don't think anyone doubt that there were more fascist supporters in the capital, specially since Real Madrid became the symbol of the Franco regime.


Franco wanted to restore order and make Spain glorious again, one nation under God. And that would mean that the city of Madrid came back into full power again, no more of regionalism and no more bickering from Basques and Catalans.

Fascism was built on three pillars:
the church, the landowners and the military,
it was an antimodernist anticapitalistic antisocialistic antidemocratic very conservative and god-fearing movement,
It was easier to win the people back in order in Madrid since the football club Real Madrid obliged to be a part of the propaganda to become a symbol of the Franco regime. It was after all a royal (real) club and it was part of the Madrid establishment before and after the war.

Barcelona was a modernist, capitalist, liberal, europe-oriented business city with a strong anarchosyndicalist hold among the workers.
Now where would you think the opposition against Franco was bigger - before and after the war? Yes, that's right, in Barcelona.

If FCB had any connection with fascists after the war it was only because of playing the part in a game they couldn't win at that time
- and to survive as a club with the price of having a few puppets at the top to obey the orders of Los Falangistas in Madrid.

If you're a RM fan you have to accept the RM history and move on. It doesn't make you a fascist.

.[/QUOTE]
Very good post except some parts :
Franco had flirted with many clubs before Real Madrid (Atletico Madrid was the Airforce club for example) , some people automatically relate Franco regime with Real madrid (Especially Cule's who haven't done some reading on the matter ) the fact remains Franco didn't approach Real Madrid till the mid 50's when he noticed he could benefit from the propaganda to his regime before that Football wasn't even a matter of interest for him
a look @ the clubs winning the liga before Real Madrid domination support this fact
for example the 2 clubs who won the liga after the civil war was Atletico Aviacion (what we know call Atletico Madrid )

the list of clubs winning the liga after the civil war till the mid 50's (when Real took over ) are as follows:
Atletico Madrid 4 titles
Barcelona 5 titles
Valencia 3 titles
Real Madrid twice
Bilbao 4 times

it's actually amazing that the Year Real won the CL was the same year Bilbao won the liga.. it was an opportunity for the dictator regime to use Madrid as a propaganda tool for him not the other way around (Madrid using Franco )

I wouldn't say Barcelona was liberal capitalist at all !
more communist ,socialist and anarchist before the war
Madrid before the war and Real Madrid in particular was filled with lefties parties who were strong and in control of the republic something the nationalist right wing didn't like so in that matter i think you are mistaken , as for after the war i think the Basque suffered much more and was much more vocal and active in their opposition .. the Catalans benefited a lot from the Franco regime (most of them anyhow ) being the business oriented minds as u mentioned and fought through their football team while the Basque took the matters to another level
however it's not like who has more victims , every city & every club shed blood fighting Franco, you lost Sunyol we lost our president , Vice President and treasury officer and we can't find their bodies till now :sad:

[Tomba11]

Real Madrid was not a fascist puppet before the civil war, during the civil war or immediately after the civil war.

The club took that role in the mid-fifties, just like you wrote.
I have never accused RM to play any part of the Fascist take-over in 1936-37.
I'm sure there were many left-wing, liberal and anti-fascist RM-fans.

The Barcelona upper classes were modernista and much more liberal, and much less conservative than the rest of Spain.
Take a look at Paseo de Gracia in Barcelona. All those modernist houses were built by rich businessmen who traded with Europe.

And you're right, the Barcelona working classes were anarchist and communist, and much less god-fearing and than the rest of Spain.
They started a revolution in Barcelona and elsewhere and they took it too far. Read Homage to Catalonia by George Orwell.

But it's true, some of the wealthy catalan people welcomed the fascists troops in a way,
but only because they would stop the communists and the anarchists.
Some of them also accepted the roles as fascist puppets in local government and at football clubs.
Barcelona was never - and did never become - a fascist city like certain other cities of Spain.
But they had to play along somehow...

The price they and the whole catalan (and basque) nation had to pay was HUGE,
they were cut off from the cultural influence of Europe- no free speech, no democracy
and no more speaking or writing in catalan outside your own home.

And then we're back to what FC Barcelona meant for the catalans through all those years....
I guess the same goes for Athletic Bilbao and the basques.

[Beast]

I read Homage to Catalonia several times as Orwell is my fav writer , detailed description of what went on during that era from his daily living incidents

[Tomba11]

Never forget Lluis Companys

In central Barcelona, near the metro Arc de Triomf, there a street named after him
and there's a memorial dedicated to him where I took this photo. It's his wife by his side.

Lluís Companys i Jover (June 21, 1882 – October 14, 1940)
He was the 123rd President of Catalonia from 1934 and during the Spanish Civil War.

He was a lawyer and leader of the political party Esquerra Republicana de Catalunya. Exiled after the war, he was captured and handed over by the Nazi secret police, the Gestapo, to the Spanish dictatorship of Francisco Franco, who had him executed by firing squad in 1940. Companys is the only incumbent president of a region in Europe executed, and seventy years later the Spanish state has not yet annulled the council of war which sentenced him.

Read more here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Llu%C3%ADs_Companys

Q: So what has this to do with football?
A: In Spain everything is associated with football.

[Beast]

Yep .. have you read "Morbo" Tomba ? you will really love it if you are interested in football /rivalry and politics in the spanish liga

[Tomba11]

Yep .. have you read "Morbo" Tomba ? you will really love it if you are interested in football /rivalry and politics in the spanish liga

No my friend but thanks a lot because when I googled it I found the whole book here.

http://books.google.se/books?id=a0wv...age&q=&f=false

Let's read it all of us!