Ernesto Valverde - V1

Kohe321 said:

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As long as he gets the final respone he can sleep well , just check the Digne thread.

Let me guess....this is messi2140 weekly pining for my attention?

Ursegor said:

A team that concedes more shots at the back than it manages upfront in half its games, is something like 30th in chance creation across Europe and where "Own Goal" is the second best top scorer, and all that while playing against the plebs of the league, except Atletico, is in no shape or form playing "well". And if the coach says he doesn't change things because he doesn't see things clearly the moment his team visibly struggles on the pitch and the GK becomes Man of the Match, it makes it even worse.

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Actually nowadays with modern statistical technologies you can measure much better if conceding shots is a sign of inferiority during a game or not. With the Xgoals we know roughly what is the 'fair' scoreline of a game. When this does not materialize we can start the discussion about luck or not.
The thing is that up to now Barcelona has not got even one point more than what the team deserved based on the XGoals maps in all LaLiga games so far (including the Supercopa games against Madrid, when the scoreline was flattering them - as the Xgoals were 1.35(without penalty)-1.1 for us in the first game and 1.21-2.18 for us in the second game). So, we cannot say that conceding more shots is an indicator of undeserved win. It matters where the shot was attempted, under what conditions, distance, angle, number of opposite players in front of the goal etc.
Even against Atleti we deserved to win based on Xgoals..
Surprisingly, the only two games that we got 'more' than deserved were the CL games vs Juventus (that people believe it to be our best performance thus far, but we were only slightly better in Xgoals 1.01-0.67) and Vs Sporting again only slightly better.

The question of beautiful football is another issue, and i am with you that we don't see beautiful football so far..

JamDav1982 said:

I swear some people forget the shit Tito took, Tata took or likes of Xavi took when claimed Barca were better team away to Bayern as had more of the ball.

This idea that the way the team plays is most important thing goes out the window quickly when try to play that way and lose.

Barca are playing well and it is not a strict 4-4-2 anyway other than when defending.

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Repeating the same thing over and over doesn't make it right. In the other thread you said Barca haven't played 4-4-2 nor a 4-3-3 all season... You seem to be of the opinion that formations and tactics are static and that shape must be maintained at all times. Every football publication as well as fans can see we're playing a 4-4-2 system but JamDav says otherwise and is willing to go to war with the custodians of football analytics, Opta, to prove his point. But before you do that and make a fool of yourself lets try this one more time.

Any system can morph into pretty much anything when in possession of the ball. A 4-4-2 can become a 4-3-3, 4-2-4, 2-4-4, 3-3-4, 3-5-2 etc etc and when not in possession it can morph into a 4-5-1 (which seems to be the case with Barcelona when Suarez helps out in defence), 5-4-1 etc etc but the fundamentals are still that of a 4-4-2 system, 4 defenders, 4 midfielders and 2 attackers.

The 4-3-3 (False 9) system we employed earlier in the season morphed into a 3-4-3/3-4-1-2 with Messi dropping deep and the full backs linking up in midfield and further up the pitch. Don't take my word for it...



This is on the official Barcelona website using the Opta stats you're so keen on debunking.

When not in possession this 4-3-3 system morphed into the 4-4-2 you describe but it can become pretty much anything like a 4-4-1-1 or 4-5-1 with the attacking wide players joining the midfield but again the fundamentals are that of a 4-3-3 system, 4 defenders, 3 midfielders and 3 attackers.

So for the sake of consistency, I'm going to show you the players average position since the Girona game when the 4-4-2 system was implemented.


vs Girona


Vs Sporting


Vs Atleti (Bear in mind there was a tactical change in this game around the 60 minute mark and Gomes was shifted from a RM to LCM role so he's average position will be skewed)


Vs Atleti (After tactical change - Clear 4-3-3/3-4-3)


Vs Malaga


Vs Bilbao.

Edit: Clear flat 4-4-2 as you can see which at times morphs into a 3-5-2 when in possession.

Some interesting reading for those interested

A little contradictory in that the author states it is a gateway formation to free Messi but later in the piece there's an admission that he has to do it all with this setup.

So as Ousmane Dembélé has said in another discussion, it hasn't escaped the media that the 4-4-2 system is employed due to the need to "shoehorn" Suarez into the lineup.

I disagree about the stratospheric level assessment though. We're bang average.

Again reading those formations wrong.

Suarez moves a couple meters to the left and he is 'clearly a winger in a 4-3-3' according to you....he hasnt been.

Messi position barely changes much and you think he switches from a 'dedicated striker' to a 'false nine'.

Can repeat again those average positions will be heavily influenced by positions when defending which has been a 4-4-2 shape a lot of the time.

Good idea to post an article and only point to bits you agree with....

Suarez was playing a lot more to the left to start the season, you still couldn't call him an out and out winger, but he was more of an inside forward who operated to the left of Messi and drifted in at times. We were definitely playing a variation of the 4-3-3 to start the year.

Anyone who thinks we've been playing a 4-4-2 since the start of the season needs to have their head checked.

JamDav1982 said:

Again reading those formations wrong.

Suarez moves a couple meters to the left and he is 'clearly a winger in a 4-3-3' according to you....he hasnt been.

Messi position barely changes much and you think he switches from a 'dedicated striker' to a 'false nine'.

Can repeat again those average positions will be heavily influenced by positions when defending which has been a 4-4-2 shape a lot of the time.

Good idea to post an article and only point to bits you agree with....

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You need serious help... Those average positions are determined by touches on the ball not every single movement a player makes. They'd have to wear tracking devices for that kind of data.

And a False 9 is exactly what it says. A forward that looks for space to run into by dropping deep or to draw the central defenders out of position to create space for others. It is used as a variation of the 4-3-3 system. Under Pep and Villanova Barca used a 4-3-3 (False 9) system with Messi in the centre, Villa as an inside forward on the left (similar to what was tried with Suarez this season and which he failed miserably at) and a classic winger/inside forward in Pedro/Sanchez on the right. Fabregas would take up the False 9 in Messi's absence. Then under Martino the False 9 was still used, only this time with classic wingers/inside forwards on either flank, Neymar LW and Sanchez/Pedro RW. When Lucho came the 4-3-3 (False 9) was discarded for a classic 4-3-3 with Suarez as the CF and Neymar and Messi as L and RW/inside fowards respectively.

You seem to be of the opinion that a 4-3-3 formation can only be played with out and out wingers. That's tripe...

And so you don't get confused by the terminology I use inside forward/winger interchangeably because they can either stay wide or they can operate in half space next to the CF.

MessiCam said:

You need serious help... Those average positions are determined by touches on the ball not every single movement a player makes. They'd have to wear tracking devices for that kind of data.

And a False 9 is exactly what it says. A forward that looks for space to run into by dropping deep or to draw the central defenders out of position to create space for others. It is used as a variation of the 4-3-3 system. Under Pep and Villanova Barca used a 4-3-3 (False 9) system with Messi in the centre, Villa as an inside forward on the left (similar to what was tried with Suarez this season and which he failed miserably at) and a classic winger/inside forward in Pedro/Sanchez on the right. Fabregas would take up the False 9 in Messi's absence. Then under Martino the False 9 was still used, only this time with classic wingers/inside forwards on either flank, Neymar LW and Sanchez/Pedro RW. When Lucho came the 4-3-3 (False 9) was discarded for a classic 4-3-3 with Suarez as the CF and Neymar and Messi as L and RW/inside fowards respectively.

You seem to be of the opinion that a 4-3-3 formation can only be played with out and out wingers. That's tripe...

And so you don't get confused by the terminology I use inside forward/winger interchangeably because they can either stay wide or they can operate in half space next to the CF.

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Touches which are determined by shape team takes up when defending as well which have said is a flat 4-4-2 for most part.

I know exactly what a false nine is and Messis role in team has been the same more or less the whole season no matter the formation. Effectively a free role in a forward/central area for most part. He has freedom to move where he wants.

Suarez did not play the LF role in way Villa or Henry did at all. He played more as a CF when Barca had ball whereas Henry/Villa held their position and looked for more runs in behind the defence. Suarez would take up more of a position closer to CBs and back to goal than those two did. Said all this before this discussion.

Never said 4-3-3 has top be wingers. Have pretty much argued the exact opposite whenever the discussion of how Barca are playing has come up.

JamDav1982 said:

Touches which are determined by shape team takes up when defending as well which have said is a flat 4-4-2 for most part.

I know exactly what a false nine is and Messis role in team has been the same more or less the whole season no matter the formation. Effectively a free role in a forward/central area for most part. He has freedom to move where he wants.

Suarez did not play the LF role in way Villa or Henry did at all. He played more as a CF when Barca had ball whereas Henry/Villa held their position and looked for more runs in behind the defence. Suarez would take up more of a position closer to CBs and back to goal than those two did. Said all this before this discussion.

Never said 4-3-3 has top be wingers. Have pretty much argued the exact opposite whenever the discussion of how Barca are playing has come up.

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Are you really going to debate the validity of the analysis from FC Barcelona? Their own team, their own players, their own data... They published an article detailing what we’ve been trying to tell you for Pete’s sake or are you just incapable of conceding that you’re wrong in this instance.

Take it on the chin man.

MessiCam said:

Are you really going to debate the validity of the analysis from FC Barcelona? Their own team, their own players, their own data... They published an article detailing what we’ve been trying to tell you for Pete’s sake or are you just incapable of conceding that you’re wrong in this instance.

Take it on the chin man.

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That article pretty much says what I have been telling you.