Denis Suarez

khaled_a_d · Nov 12, 2017

Few possibilities
1-Board is doing a mistake here
2-MD is doing a mistake
3-EV wants changes in the team and want to start it in January, because doing it all in one summer could be difficult.
He might want Denis & Gomes out eventually, but it will be difficult to do it both in one summer, so one at a time. Truth is Dembele return will affect Denis playing time, and if Alena is in fact in EV plan then Denis has no place.
Essentially Alena atm is AM/RW for Barca, Dembele is an RW/LW & Denis is LW/RW/AM, if Valverde rates Gerard higher or more useful (due to his pace, which is unmatched in the squad) then Denis probably has no place in the team. Gomes is more of a true CM/DM too, and possibly many of the teams interested in him will be playing in CL in the 2nd half of the season so the team might see him leaving in summer rather than January

MessiCam said:
I have a weird feeling about all this... They want CB’s, box to box midfielders. Valverde is gonna turn Barça into Liverpool under Benitez.

over 20 years watching football (I knew you probably watched it longer) and I've yet to see a team playing without 2 CB at least. next summer we have only 2 CB, so tell me again why it is a thing that we want CB? it is our biggest need, at least in midfield we have players even if they aren't of high quality.

Ousmane Dembélé said:
Give him a run of 10-15 games in the Starting XI to see what he's made off. If he plays like shit ship him off, if not great, he can stay.

This is FC Barcelona man, you don't hand such amount of games to see how player is gonna do.

Ousmane Dembélé · Nov 12, 2017

khaled_a_d said:
This is FC Barcelona man, you don't hand such amount of games to see how player is gonna do.

You certainly can when your alternatives are Deulofeu, Paulinho, Rakitic and Paco. Giving Denis a run wouldn't be any wore than playing those aforementioned scrubs, at least Denis has shown he has the talent before.

This is not the Barcelona of old where we had prime Iniesta, Neymar, Xavi, or Pedro, where playing Denis over any of them would be retarded. Right now we have a bunch of dead weight and it wouldn't hurt to give Denis a run in the starting XI.

gasgas · Nov 12, 2017

Bbz hates denis.

He even stated that Denis is the worst player in this team.
Nothing new here

MessiCam · Nov 12, 2017

khaled_a_d said:
Few possibilities
1-Board is doing a mistake here
2-MD is doing a mistake
3-EV wants changes in the team and want to start it in January, because doing it all in one summer could be difficult.
He might want Denis & Gomes out eventually, but it will be difficult to do it both in one summer, so one at a time. Truth is Dembele return will affect Denis playing time, and if Alena is in fact in EV plan then Denis has no place.
Essentially Alena atm is AM/RW for Barca, Dembele is an RW/LW & Denis is LW/RW/AM, if Valverde rates Gerard higher or more useful (due to his pace, which is unmatched in the squad) then Denis probably has no place in the team. Gomes is more of a true CM/DM too, and possibly many of the teams interested in him will be playing in CL in the 2nd half of the season so the team might see him leaving in summer rather than January

over 20 years watching football (I knew you probably watched it longer) and I've yet to see a team playing without 2 CB at least. next summer we have only 2 CB, so tell me again why it is a thing that we want CB? it is our biggest need, at least in midfield we have players even if they aren't of high quality.

This is FC Barcelona man, you don't hand such amount of games to see how player is gonna do.

I have no problem with the signing of CB’s especially high quality ones. I have a problem with it being a prioritised over midfield despite it being glaringly obvious that we lack creativity in midfield and another wing option.

As for the Denis situation. Even if what you write is true... But due to the author of the article I have little doubt that there is at least some truth to it... Why would you want to get rid of your 2nd best option in the final third (up to this point) in the January window and keep Gomes until at least the summer? It makes zero sense from a team point of view and I completely understand the bewilderment of Messi and Suárez.

Further, it would appear that Valverde has some sort of obsession with box to box midfielders, with this interest in Goretzka. What I’ve observed thus far from Valverde’s selections, tactics, potential signings as well as sales I think it’s become obvious that he plans on playing a more defensive brand of football. Busquets statements the other day should get alarm bells ringing but it’s been silent...

Other than that I don’t know what to say but I have seen enough from Valverde to want him out already. He’s not a fit for this clubs principles.

Nothanks · Nov 12, 2017

the defense has priority over midfield simply because we will have no backups other than vermalean

khaled_a_d · Nov 12, 2017

MessiCam said:
I have no problem with the signing of CB’s especially high quality ones. I have a problem with it being a prioritised over midfield despite it being glaringly obvious that we lack creativity in midfield and another wing option.

As for the Denis situation. Even if what you write is true... But due to the author of the article I have little doubt that there is at least some truth to it... Why would you want to get rid of your 2nd best option in the final third (up to this point) in the January window and keep Gomes until at least the summer? It makes zero sense from a team point of view and I completely understand the bewilderment of Messi and Suárez.

Further, it would appear that Valverde has some sort of obsession with box to box midfielders, with this interest in Goretzka. What I’ve observed thus far from Valverde’s selections, tactics, potential signings as well as sales I think it’s become obvious that he plans on playing a more defensive brand of football. Busquets statements the other day should get alarm bells ringing but it’s been silent...

Other than that I don’t know what to say but I have seen enough from Valverde to want him out already. He’s not a fit for this clubs principles.

CB is more urgent than midfield, in midfield you need upgrade while in defense you need actual player. in June we will have only two players that can play the position and one of them is out of form. I really don't get how any one can argue it isn't by far our top priority atm.
And box to box doesn't mean defensive set up, Groetzke himself has his defensive issue (was the player dribbled most in Bundesliga until couple of weeks ago) and has been the most important player for Schalke on the offensive end and they are a top four team in a top four league.
And just for the record, we have won 2 CL with a box to box midfielder (2006 & 2015) and in both cases we were attacking team.
And honestly, I think you are overrating Denis a lot.
PS: tabloids can be wrong even if it is said in several of them, remember Coutinho?

Ousmane Dembélé said:
You certainly can when your alternatives are Deulofeu, Paulinho, Rakitic and Paco. Giving Denis a run wouldn't be any wore than playing those aforementioned scrubs, at least Denis has shown he has the talent before.

This is not the Barcelona of old where we had prime Iniesta, Neymar, Xavi, or Pedro, where playing Denis over any of them would be retarded. Right now we have a bunch of dead weight and it wouldn't hurt to give Denis a run in the starting XI.

Denis isn't a midfielder, at least not a one that plays beside Iniesta. Guy has some serious flows in that regard, if he is ever gonna get a run of games it will be as RW, and honestly I would take Gerard over him, at least in many situations.

MessiCam · Nov 12, 2017

Both Mascherano and Vermaelen Are contracted until 2019. I don’t see the haste... Whereas in midfield abominations have been signed year in year out with no end in sight. If you can get CB on the cheap, like Mina, then grab the opportunity but apparently Valverde doesn’t want him.

Box to box midfielders are fine if you play a direct style but we know that’s not how Barça play. It’s become an obsession lately and not everyone is going to succeed. It’s the cause of our midfield woes. Just what does Valverde want to turn this club into? This is not Bilbao... We’ve already seen his preference toward these type of players with his selections.

I am also aware that everyone has their own ideas of where the club should be headed but for God’s sake don’t destroy what has been built over the last 30 years.

Aleñá is ready for this team but who wants to bet that he won’t get his chance due to the style that Valverde wants to play?

khaled_a_d · Nov 12, 2017

MessiCam said:
Both Mascherano and Vermaelen Are contracted until 2019. I don’t see the haste... Whereas in midfield abominations have been signed year in year out with no end in sight. If you can get CB on the cheap, like Mina, then grab the opportunity but apparently Valverde doesn’t want him.

Mascherano already told the club he is leaving next summer, he has earned the right to leave when he wants never mind he has been on decline for some time so it is about time. so scratch him from the list.
Vermaelen?seriously? I mean he wants to leave and sporting director himself stated they can't rely on him. He has one leg out of the club and the other is probably injured.

Mina is on his way,but Valverde wants another CB, which is a must and it also he has to have European passport because we can't have so many non-eu players.

MessiCam said:
Box to box midfielders are fine if you play a direct style but we know that’s not how Barça play. It’s become an obsession lately and not everyone is going to succeed. It’s the cause of our midfield woes. Just what does Valverde want to turn this club into? This is not Bilbao... We’ve already seen his preference toward these type of players with his selections.

I am also aware that everyone has their own ideas of where the club should be headed but for God’s sake don’t destroy what has been built over the last 30 years.

Hmmm, this is weird coming from someone who watched Barca that long, other than during Pep era we used b2b plenty of time. There was always a need for a strong tall midfielder out there. And again we won two of our last 4 CL titles with Rakitic and MVB starting in midfield. It was moving from this Barca-esque midfielder that allowed us to finally get back on track under Lucho after Tito and Tata tried to replicate an outdated ideas. May be when we have Verratti and Coutinho in the team we can feel said about rumors lining us to Groetzke. Never mind it is rumors that was denied by the club already. but you can keep being angred by Valverde over it

MessiCam said:
Aleñá is ready for this team but who wants to bet that he won’t get his chance due to the style that Valverde wants to play?

Again, Denis is a winger/AM atm, Alena is an AM/Winger currently too. so if Denis is leaving he is actually opening things for Alena, not the opposite.

BBZ8800 · Nov 12, 2017

khaled_a_d said:
Hmmm, this is weird coming from someone who watched Barca that long, other than during Pep era we used b2b plenty of time. There was always a need for a strong tall midfielder out there. And again we won two of our last 4 CL titles with Rakitic and MVB starting in midfield. It was moving from this Barca-esque midfielder that allowed us to finally get back on track under Lucho after Tito and Tata tried to replicate an outdated ideas. May be when we have Verratti and Coutinho in the team we can feel said about rumors lining us to Groetzke. Never mind it is rumors that was denied by the club already. but you can keep being angred by Valverde over it

+1, Khaled replied.

MessiCam said:
Box to box midfielders are fine if you play a direct style but we know that’s not how Barça play. It’s become an obsession lately and not everyone is going to succeed. It’s the cause of our midfield woes. Just what does Valverde want to turn this club into? This is not Bilbao... We’ve already seen his preference toward these type of players with his selections.

I would add: we don't have midfield woes because of box to box midfielders.
We DO HAVE midfielder woes because NO PLAYER in the world can replace Xavi-Iniesta, and we got used to that level.
Xavi-Iniesta were heart, soul and brain of Barca and they were a key reason why we played well, nice (on eyes), dominant, lethal etc.

When you lose (prime) Xavi and Iniesta, we are in the same shit as every other mortal club in the world.
Why Real never played as beautiful as Xavi-Iniesta's Barca?
Well, simply because they didn't have Xavi and Iniesta in their team.
It is not as if other teams LIKE to play ugly or mediocre football.
They are forced to play mediocre football (in terms of beauty) because they have such players.
Ok, a part of it and some mechanisms could be learned through La Masia, but even then you cannot play Xavi-Iniesta type of a football with Samper-Roberto-Rafinha trio (or Samper-Thiago-Rafinha). They are just not Xavi-Iniesta, and everything learned in La Masia cannot turn them into Xavi-Iniesta.

When you sum everything, our midfield woes started when we lost (prime) Xavi and Iniesta.
And since there are no new Xavi and Iniesta, our only 2 options are:
1. play with bad copies of prime Xavi and Iniesta (which means players like Rafinha, Rakitic etc) or playing with past their prime Xavi-Iniesta
2. or turn the page and try something new with players whom you have

Now, since we already tried for years to play with bad copies of Xavi and Iniesta and we managed to win only 1 CL in 6 years, even though we had 24-30 years old Messi, 27-33 years old Iniesta, 24-30 years old Busi, MSN in their prime etc.
So, we had all of that (and Messi) and we weren't too good in a CL.
And now, when our team is way worse than in those 6 years, and when our Xavi-Iniesta copies are even worse than players in that era, it is easy to understand that it was a time to move on and try something new.

I mean, if we continued with bad Xavi-Iniesta copies and with short, physically weak technical players, what would happen?
Another Juventus game, Psg game, Atletico CL quarters.

We tried that shit with poor and physically weak Xavi-Iniesta replacements and it isn't working too well.
It is good against majority of La liga teams, but it isn't good against any physically stronger CL team.
So, playing Gomes, Rakitic and others isn't any worse than playing Xavi-Iniesta copies.
And at the end of the day, results are better and we have a better defense and more physical presence.

In short, you have 2 options:
1. playing bad Xavi-Iniesta copies and trying to replicate golden era, with way weaker players, with 30+ years old Messi, in a football world where everyone evolved (except us who are trying the same thing from 2009) and where everyone learned how to actually neutralize easily 2009's style (unlike then when that style was new and teams didn't figure out yet that they need to park 2 buses around their box, leave the flanks open and kill us on numerous counters or from free kicks and crosses)
2. trying something new, more suited for 2017/2018 era of football and for a current state of our opponents

Of course, there is an option where we could field a Coutinho-Verratti-Busquets (or some new guy) trio and try to live in 2009 again, but we are short for 2 guys out of those 3 to make it happen.
If someone mentions Alena, well Coutinho-Alena midfield is not a good option in terms of defense and some physical presence.
I'll get some hate, no problem, but Alena also needs to lower the amount of 20 (easily) lost balls per match if he wants to get more chances in A-team's starting 11.

For the end, it is not that simple just to say: Gomes/Raki caused our midfield woes.

MessiCam · Nov 12, 2017

khaled_a_d said:
Mascherano already told the club he is leaving next summer, he has earned the right to leave when he wants never mind he has been on decline for some time so it is about time. so scratch him from the list.
Vermaelen?seriously? I mean he wants to leave and sporting director himself stated they can't rely on him. He has one leg out of the club and the other is probably injured.

Mina is on his way,but Valverde wants another CB, which is a must and it also he has to have European passport because we can't have so many non-eu players.

Hmmm, this is weird coming from someone who watched Barca that long, other than during Pep era we used b2b plenty of time. There was always a need for a strong tall midfielder out there. And again we won two of our last 4 CL titles with Rakitic and MVB starting in midfield. It was moving from this Barca-esque midfielder that allowed us to finally get back on track under Lucho after Tito and Tata tried to replicate an outdated ideas. May be when we have Verratti and Coutinho in the team we can feel said about rumors lining us to Groetzke. Never mind it is rumors that was denied by the club already. but you can keep being angred by Valverde over it

Again, Denis is a winger/AM atm, Alena is an AM/Winger currently too. so if Denis is leaving he is actually opening things for Alena, not the opposite.

Show me one era in the last 30 years where there has been 4/5 box to box midfielders in the same squad... I have nothing against the players but they fail a hell of a lot at Barcelona and winning the trophies those years you mention being 2006 and 2015 was not surprising because of a shift to a direct style.

The club has been linked to Goretzka multiple times just like Coutinho... Whether he comes or not is irrelevant because it shows the intention for a player of said profile. Might as well keep Gomes and save on the wages.

Regarding Denis, again, my issue is with getting rid of him while keeping Gomes (box to box) and further Denis operates on the left side whereas Aleñá operates the right side. He doesn’t need to leave to make space for Aleñá.

JamDav1982 · Nov 12, 2017

MessiCam said:
Show me one era in the last 30 years where there has been 4/5 box to box midfielders in the same squad... I have nothing against the players but they fail a hell of a lot at Barcelona and winning the trophies those years you mention being 2006 and 2015 was not surprising because of a shift to a direct style.

The club has been linked to Goretzka multiple times just like Coutinho... Whether he comes or not is irrelevant because it shows the intention for a player of said profile. Might as well keep Gomes and save on the wages.

Regarding Denis, again, my issue is with getting rid of him while keeping Gomes (box to box) and further Denis operates on the left side whereas Aleñá operates the right side. He doesn’t need to leave to make space for Aleñá.

Barca dont have 4/5 box to box midfielders though.

Certainly not players that are playing that way.

Barca are having more of the ball than almost any team in europe this season. They are not looking to go direct all the time.

There needs to be a mix. The Iniesta/Xavi midfield dominance was a one off due to them as players and other teams not adapted to it.

Can see Pep at Bayern and City has wanted more power in his midfield as knows impossible to replicate what Barca did.

MessiCam · Nov 12, 2017

BBZ8800 said:
+1, Khaled replied.

I would add: we don't have midfield woes because of box to box midfielders.
We DO HAVE midfielder woes because NO PLAYER in the world can replace Xavi-Iniesta, and we got used to that level.
Xavi-Iniesta were heart, soul and brain of Barca and they were a key reason why we played well, nice (on eyes), dominant, lethal etc.

When you lose (prime) Xavi and Iniesta, we are in the same shit as every other mortal club in the world.
Why Real never played as beautiful as Xavi-Iniesta's Barca?
Well, simply because they didn't have Xavi and Iniesta in their team.
It is not as if other teams LIKE to play ugly or mediocre football.
They are forced to play mediocre football (in terms of beauty) because they have such players.
Ok, a part of it and some mechanisms could be learned through La Masia, but even then you cannot play Xavi-Iniesta type of a football with Samper-Roberto-Rafinha trio (or Samper-Thiago-Rafinha). They are just not Xavi-Iniesta, and everything learned in La Masia cannot turn them into Xavi-Iniesta.

When you sum everything, our midfield woes started when we lost (prime) Xavi and Iniesta.
And since there are no new Xavi and Iniesta, our only 2 options are:
1. play with bad copies of prime Xavi and Iniesta (which means players like Rafinha, Rakitic etc) or playing with past their prime Xavi-Iniesta
2. or turn the page and try something new with players whom you have

Now, since we already tried for years to play with bad copies of Xavi and Iniesta and we managed to win only 1 CL in 6 years, even though we had 24-30 years old Messi, 27-33 years old Iniesta, 24-30 years old Busi, MSN in their prime etc.
So, we had all of that (and Messi) and we weren't too good in a CL.
And now, when our team is way worse than in those 6 years, and when our Xavi-Iniesta copies are even worse than players in that era, it is easy to understand that it was a time to move on and try something new.

I mean, if we continued with bad Xavi-Iniesta copies and with short, physically weak technical players, what would happen?
Another Juventus game, Psg game, Atletico CL quarters.

We tried that shit with poor and physically weak Xavi-Iniesta replacements and it isn't working too well.
It is good against majority of La liga teams, but it isn't good against any physically stronger CL team.
So, playing Gomes, Rakitic and others isn't any worse than playing Xavi-Iniesta copies.
And at the end of the day, results are better and we have a better defense and more physical presence.

In short, you have 2 options:
1. playing bad Xavi-Iniesta copies and trying to replicate golden era, with way weaker players, with 30+ years old Messi, in a football world where everyone evolved (except us who are trying the same thing from 2009) and where everyone learned how to actually neutralize easily 2009's style (unlike then when that style was new and teams didn't figure out yet that they need to park 2 buses around their box, leave the flanks open and kill us on numerous counters or from free kicks and crosses)
2. trying something new, more suited for 2017/2018 era of football and for a current state of our opponents

Of course, there is an option where we could field a Coutinho-Verratti-Busquets (or some new guy) trio and try to live in 2009 again, but we are short for 2 guys out of those 3 to make it happen.
If someone mentions Alena, well Coutinho-Alena midfield is not a good option in terms of defense and some physical presence.
I'll get some hate, no problem, but Alena also needs to lower the amount of 20 (easily) lost balls per match if he wants to get more chances in A-team's starting 11.

For the end, it is not that simple just to say: Gomes/Raki caused our midfield woes.

You jumping in at the deep end again. I’m not advocating we replicate Iniesa/Xavi football. I’m advocating that we step away from these box to box types so we can play an attractive brand of football again. Like Napoli, City, Dortmund etc... Do they have Iniesta and Xavi? Finding a replacement for Iniesta is easy. There are many that offer what he he does without the panache. Coutinho, Lemar, KdB, Modric, Silva... Should I go on? Xavi on the other hand is impossible to replace and I’ve many times stated that they should stop trying. Verratti as a deep lying playmaker would be my first choice and as second I’d have a look at Koke. Maybe Jorginho but I consider him a DM first and foremost.

Yes, Barça have used box to box midfielders in the past, though not to the extent they’re using them under Valverde but it doesn’t surprise me because that’s his style. It’s just frustrating because we can see where the club is heading and I don’t like it.

MessiCam · Nov 12, 2017

JamDav1982 said:
Barca dont have 4/5 box to box midfielders though.

Certainly not players that are playing that way.

Barca are having more of the ball than almost any team in europe this season. They are not looking to go direct all the time.

There needs to be a mix. The Iniesta/Xavi midfield dominance was a one off due to them as players and other teams not adapted to it.

Can see Pep at Bayern and City has wanted more power in his midfield as knows impossible to replicate what Barca did.

Rakitic, Gomes, Paulinho, Roberto (he’s morphed into a box to box player) and 5 if we include this Goretzka nonsense.

And you’re right about us seeing a lot of the ball but we’re incapable of putting it to good use. All our midfielders except Iniesta prefer to drive at defenders instead of using passing options.

Joan · Nov 12, 2017

khaled_a_d said:
Never mind it is rumors that was denied by the club already. but you can keep being angred by Valverde over it

Who denied Goretzka rumors? I've missed that..

JamDav1982 · Nov 12, 2017

MessiCam said:
Rakitic, Gomes, Paulinho, Roberto (he’s morphed into a box to box player) and 5 if we include this Goretzka nonsense.

And you’re right about us seeing a lot of the ball but we’re incapable of putting it to good use. All our midfielders except Iniesta prefer to drive at defenders instead of using passing options.

None of them have really being getting used as box to box midfielders though.

The 2006 that won the CL had a midfield based more on taller box to box players than this one.

Top scorers in La Liga with most possession so ball has been put to good use so far.

It could be better but if Barca suddenly started playing likes of Denis in midfield and went 4-3-3 all the time could easily be in a worse position than now.

Denis Suarez

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