Lionel Messi - v7

[Mitchell1978]

Being introverted means you can't press or run?

and stay classy Trumpcel

You know what i mean, introverted people often seem more stoic, like they care less which you found "inexcusable" but there really is no evidence that he didn't care and you shouldn't make conslusions based on body language

and i don't care about Trump, though i do find his ability to make fun off/piss off leftist and liberals amusing

 

[Mitchell1978]

+1

Simply cannot cope with the blind Messi fanboys raving about how Leo has maintained his peak level.

Just isn't true.

He has kept his stats afloat by forcing himself into every action in the final third and insisting absolutely everything goes through him. Some of this may be down to the fact the team around him has gotten worse, but a lot of it is also Messi himself becoming lethargic in defense and more restless in attack simply jogging to whomever has the ball and expecting as pass without any respect whatsoever for allowing structured build up or maintaining positional stability. One moment he will be on the left wing next to Alba and the other he'll be besides Busquets deep in the midfield. This is not how a team is supposed to function.

Like I've mentioned before, I would much rather have a 40 goal + 20 assist Messi playing a team game, than a 55 goal + 30 assist Messi doing as he pleases and pumping his stats against minnows only for the team to fall apart in big matches with Messi's style being counter productive.

This is not the same ruthless, clinical, efficient Leo of yesteryear where he would keep his shape, not disrupt the overall team play for offense and pop up with two goals on two shots or two assists on two passes. The bloke is currently more of a laissez faire, more static player that is less ruthless, but still a high producer due to the sheer volume of balls coming off his foot in the final third and talent level obviously.

There has been some physical decline (less explosive, slower, stamina perhaps) off course which is normal considering his age but performance wise the past season he was at peak level or near peak level for most of the season, so yeah i and from what i've read on a lot of advanced stats-sites it absolutely was one of his best seasons. His best season since 14/15 for shure at least.

 

[Never_Forget40]

68 - Cristiano Ronaldo

42 - Lionel Messi

21 - Thomas Müller

19 - Lewandowski

18 - Raúl and Shevchenko

17 - Benzema

16 - Inzaghi and Robben

15 - Lampard

14 - Drogba and Rooney

CL Topscorers in Knockout Stage

Ronaldo has 50% more goals in CL Knockout Stages as Messi. Its crazy as I remember in 2012 Messi was far ahead from CR7.

 

[serghei]

Of course Messi is going to have the most goals assists dribbles key passes touches and all those stats if he is the one starting and ending almost every attack. This is not an indicator of him becoming better or something. Better stats do not mean he is playing better. It is clear that Leo has declined compared to 14/15 or 11/12. His decision making in attack has been becoming more questionable and sometimes even frustrating in these last two years, and I’m not talking about the obvious physical decline.

Hurts when obvious logical posts like that sound almost like a revelation around here. This should be unanimously accepted, but here we have posters who actually think Messi's stats are as high these days not because we run everything through him, but because he is playing better than ever.

You can't make this shit up.

 

[serghei]

Messi scored against all of those teams and assisted against 2. So, again, I ask where exactly he fell short this season? His "disappointing" game at Anfield was actually a great game by pretty much every player's standards, you can't generate all the offense and then score every fucking time.

No it was not. It was only a great game if you pretend it is normal for Messi to be excused from having to do work without the ball. Then in this case, yea, he had a good game because in the limited amount of times he was on the ball, he made some nice passes.

But in professional football at very high level, where both what you do with the ball, as well as what you do without it matters, Messi, also considering he was the captain of a team who collapsed like panicked schoolboys, did certainly NOT have a good game.

Basically, the Messi fan speech is Messi is amazing because he does this or that with the ball, but he is not bad because he doesn't do this or that WITHOUT the ball, because he is Lionel Messi and others have to carry his shit and make up for his flaws. And then they pretend that the flaws and the bad stuff he does on the pitch do not exist.

We just got beat 4-0 by a bunch of hardworking inspired Liverpool players, with average technique and average talent, and here we are saying our captain had a great game. It was a match where our best players put in a 4/10 performance. Even if you say Messi was our best player, he was still mediocre, which is the most generous adjective you could use to describe his performance as a Barcelona captain (again something the Messi fans completely ignores, his responsibility as the captain of the team).

 

[Never_Forget40]

Basically, the Messi fan speech is Messi is amazing because he does this or that with the ball, but he is not bad because he doesn't do this or that WITHOUT the ball, because he is Lionel Messi and others have to carry his shit and make up for his flaws. And then they pretend that the flaws and the bad stuff he does on the pitch do not exist.

The most people here dont understand that point. Everybody blames Higuain for the three final losses but nobody mention that Messi also was just bad in these matches. Its like people want always excuse his poorly performances by blaming other players.

 

[serghei]

The most people here dont understand that point. Everybody blames Higuain for the three final losses but nobody mention that Messi also was just bad in these matches. Its like people want always excuse his poorly performances by blaming other players.

Something like that.

The approach were Messi moves very little off the ball and he is basically the only focus in attack is NOT WORKING. And has demonstrably been a failure in the Champions League. And it is not working not because the others are failing Messi, but because everybody is failing the club and the fans. Including Messi.

This means Messi must have a more restricted and clear role, and he needs to compensate that by doing more work off the ball, like a normal player. Smaller area of action, more intensity inside it, on and especially off the ball. That is what he has to do. He either can do it and help the team, or he can't do it, and will continue to be, along with his teammates, a failure in the Champions League.

What we know for sure is that, under Valverde, this playing style with Messi doing everything offensively almost and nothing defensively, while efficient in Spain, has been the opposite in Europe. We need to adopt a playing style, and tactics which are good and efficient in any condition.

 

[Mitchell1978]

Something like that.

The approach were Messi moves very little off the ball and he is basically the only focus in attack is NOT WORKING. And has demonstrably been a failure in the Champions League. This means Messi must have a more restrict and clear role, and he needs to compensate that by doing more work off the ball.

And it is not working not because the others are failing Messi, but because everybody is failing the club and the fans. Including Messi.

Failing the fans, lol, fans like you reek of entitlement.

I pointed this out already but the reason barça won the treble in 14/15 and (barely) missed out the past season was the lack of quality around him because Messi's performance in those 2 seasons was very similar in level.

 

[serghei]

Failing the fans, lol, fans like you reek of entitlement.

I pointed this out already but the reason barça won the treble in 14/15 and (barely) missed out the past season was the lack of quality around him because Messi's performance in those 2 seasons was very similar in level.

OK. The fans deserve to suffer historical humiliations each season in CL. If it suits you. Still doesn't change the narrative. Messi and Barcelona need to change to stand a chance in the Champions League. You can either accept it, or continue to be in denial.

I already have Messi as the greatest league player of all time, underachiever in the Champions League due to some clear issues in his game which have grown bigger and bigger post Guardiola. Why do you think he's won the Ballon d'Or in 4 out of 4 years with Guardiola, but only 1 in 6 years without him? Guardiola designed the perfect role for him. Outside that role, and those tactics, he is not nearly as effective against the best teams in Europe.

 

[michelco]

Remember reading an interview by Henry about Guardiola's system. He asked the wide forwards to stay wide until the ball came into the final third, then and only then were they allowed to roam. Essentially they sacrificed their instinct in order to stretch the opposition defence line and create space. We see nothing of this today. the question is if this is due to Messi or lack of tactical directions. obv doesn't apply to EV's ridiculus 4-4-2 with 4 central mids

 

[serghei]

Remember reading an interview by Henry about Guardiola's system. He asked the wide forwards to stay wide until the ball came into the final third, then and only then were they allowed to roam. Essentially they sacrificed their instinct in order to stretch the opposition defence line and create space. We see nothing of this today. the question is if this is due to Messi or lack of tactical directions. obv doesn't apply to EV's ridiculus 4-4-2 with 4 central mids

That was the brilliance of it imo. Each player had a role and a purpose inside a greater whole, and we didn't have situations where somebody else had to do this or that extra, because x or y doesn't want to or can't. Everybody did at least a reasonable amount of work, including Messi. Nobody was a slacker or too lazy to press and run. Players aligned to the philosophy after understanding their roles, or left out of the back door.

 

[Laplacian]

Something like that.

The approach were Messi moves very little off the ball and he is basically the only focus in attack is NOT WORKING. And has demonstrably been a failure in the Champions League. And it is not working not because the others are failing Messi, but because everybody is failing the club and the fans. Including Messi.

This means Messi must have a more restricted and clear role, and he needs to compensate that by doing more work off the ball, like a normal player. Smaller area of action, more intensity inside it, on and especially off the ball. That is what he has to do. He either can do it and help the team, or he can't do it, and will continue to be, along with his teammates, a failure in the Champions League.

What we know for sure is that, under Valverde, this playing style with Messi doing everything offensively almost and nothing defensively, while efficient in Spain, has been the opposite in Europe. We need to adopt a playing style, and tactics which are good and efficient in any condition.

I've been saying this for ages, Messi should transition into an Aguero type role while he still has the endurance, agility, and acceleration. We should take advantage of his elite finishing. We could balance out the front 3 by playing two wingers, and our midfield wouldn't be so lethargic as they no longer need to compensate for the gaping holes in the right flank.

Instead we let him walk around fucking the press, the defensive shape, and attacking shape of the team. Of course fans will constantly be like it's OKAY, he's one of the best players in history so he can do what he wants.

(but then they'll also be like, we're wasting Messi's prime!!!!!!!!!)

Only a coach with balls (Lucho or Pep for example) would change the BS free role Messi currently has. With Valverde and this board, we'll just continue to feed it through signings and tactics.

 

[te amo barca]

I've been saying this for ages, Messi should transition into an Aguero type role while he still has the endurance, agility, and acceleration. We should take advantage of his elite finishing. We could balance out the front 3 by playing two wingers, and our midfield wouldn't be so lethargic as they no longer need to compensate for the gaping holes in the right flank.

Instead we let him walk around fucking the press, the defensive shape, and attacking shape of the team. Of course fans will constantly be like it's OKAY, he's one of the best players in history so he can do what he wants.

(but then they'll also be like, we're wasting Messi's prime!!!!!!!!!)

Only a coach with balls (Lucho or Pep for example) would change the BS free role Messi currently has. With Valverde and this board, we'll just continue to feed it through signings and tactics.

Great points. Messi is never going to be a good midfielder because of his non-existent off the ball movement. He has to play closer to goal.

 

[CatalinR10]

I've been saying this for ages, Messi should transition into an Aguero type role while he still has the endurance, agility, and acceleration. We should take advantage of his elite finishing. We could balance out the front 3 by playing two wingers, and our midfield wouldn't be so lethargic as they no longer need to compensate for the gaping holes in the right flank.

Instead we let him walk around fucking the press, the defensive shape, and attacking shape of the team. Of course fans will constantly be like it's OKAY, he's one of the best players in history so he can do what he wants.

(but then they'll also be like, we're wasting Messi's prime!!!!!!!!!)

Only a coach with balls (Lucho or Pep for example) would change the BS free role Messi currently has. With Valverde and this board, we'll just continue to feed it through signings and tactics.

How do you want him to play as an Aguero role when Valverde puts in midfield as many defensive midfielders as always. Not only that but the quality of them is low (Busi - Rakitic )


Put Semedo at RB and Arthur instead of Rakitic at CM and we would have won the CL. Instead , people don't appreciate the insane season Messi just had. It's a joke really.

 

[Mitchell1978]

OK. The fans deserve to suffer historical humiliations each season in CL. If it suits you. Still doesn't change the narrative. Messi and Barcelona need to change to stand a chance in the Champions League. You can either accept it, or continue to be in denial.

I already have Messi as the greatest league player of all time, underachiever in the Champions League due to some clear issues in his game which have grown bigger and bigger post Guardiola. Why do you think he's won the Ballon d'Or in 4 out of 4 years with Guardiola, but only 1 in 6 years without him? Guardiola designed the perfect role for him. Outside that role, and those tactics, he is not nearly as effective against the best teams in Europe.

Unless you contribute financially or in some other way to the club you don't deserve anything.

I'm not in denial of anything, barça was the best team in the world during Pep's first 3 seasons and dominated in Europe, but that no longer is the case.
I suspect you and a lot of people here became "fans" during that period and can't handle the fact barça no longer is that dominant team in Europe so you lash out at the best player in barça's history. Only a smart sporting project (make the right transfers, hire the right coach) can get barça back there but its unlikely looking at the moves barça is making right now or has made.

And it has been mostly Messi and his consistent performances that have made shure barça continued winning or competing for trophies.
Barça since 2008-09 (start of his prime) 11 seasons: 8 La Liga, 3 CL, 6 Copa del Rey and a bunch of supercups... by far the best period in barça's history

As for the Ballon D'Or its purely a narrative award even more so now that only the press can vote.