Ernesto Valverde - V1

[soul24rage]

I would wait until maybe the end of Nov to see whether he really learned his lesson or not. I'm not going to take away too much from that valladolid game as I don't think we could have controlled the game the way we wanted with that pitch.

Teams who have the intensity and pressures us while we are sitting back are usually the team that troubles us the most under EV with the Roma game being the perfect example. I'm hoping we face teams that pressures us to see whether EV did learn his lesson. Will he make the team sit back or make the team try to pass by the opponent's pressure?

The one thing that made me think that he might have learned his lesson is playing a 433 from the getgo in the three official matches we played so far. I think the 433 is the best formation for our team that can bypass the pressure. We just need to play the correct players for that situation. As much as I like Rakitic, he's not good when dealing with pressure so I'm hoping maybe Arthur can play vs team like Liverpool and Man City.

 

[FC433]

^
Did exactly the same mistake against Sevilla in the SSC.

 

[xXKonan]

This team in general is different to what he has had at Bilbao/Espanyol etc.

Those teams had the workhorses and discipline to be able to sit back and defend if needed well while not Atletico but still good enough. With Barca you really can't as we have a number of players who don't fit that criteria.

We are a team that is best off keeping the ball and being on the front foot to defend. We just aren't built to defend a lead without the ball.

 

[Zidane82]

Valverde is much more of a negative manager than Guardiola. Much less brave, much more scared of conceding a goal.

Well that explains his obsession with Rakitic then ...

 

[jairzinho]

This team in general is different to what he has had at Bilbao/Espanyol etc.

Those teams had the workhorses and discipline to be able to sit back and defend if needed well while not Atletico but still good enough. With Barca you really can't as we have a number of players who don't fit that criteria.

We are a team that is best off keeping the ball and being on the front foot to defend. We just aren't built to defend a lead without the ball.

Agreed. We're not exactly the type of team to park the bus and soak up pressure with a 1-0 lead. The Roma defeat is a perfect example of that. And we had an even bigger lead in that game. Seems like EV hasn't learned from that embarrassment. If it wasn't for VAR, we would have dropped points. Against any top level team, we would have lost. That's a fact. Don't let the 3 points mask the obvious deficiencies with EV and his approach. I don't think we have the combative type of players who can close down spaces really quickly and a midfield like Athletico that is compact and organized defensively. Raki and Busi are not in that mould.

 

[soul24rage]

^
Did exactly the same mistake against Sevilla in the SSC.

ur right, totally forgot about the last 10 minute after dembele scored. it looks very likely we're gonna drop back and defend rather than keeping possession and taking control of the match

 

[George_Costanza]

If it wasn't for VAR, we would have dropped points.

Valverde on VAR: "I wouldn't want VAR to interrupt the flow of games. The great thing about football is that it's so fast, there are so few interruptions. The referees certainly need help but this shouldn't be to the detriment of the speed of the game."

 

[FCBfan22]

Valverde on VAR: "I wouldn't want VAR to interrupt the flow of games. The great thing about football is that it's so fast, there are so few interruptions. The referees certainly need help but this shouldn't be to the detriment of the speed of the game."

If he thinks his football is fast, he might as well think that a Volkswagen Polo is the fastest car in the world.

 

[Joan]

Waht Valverde did last game is a clear message. He has not yet learned what went wrong against Roma.

Teams who have the intensity and pressures us while we are sitting back are usually the team that troubles us the most under EV with the Roma game being the perfect example. I'm hoping we face teams that pressures us to see whether EV did learn his lesson. Will he make the team sit back or make the team try to pass by the opponent's pressure?

We are a team that is best off keeping the ball and being on the front foot to defend. We just aren't built to defend a lead without the ball.

Agreed. We're not exactly the type of team to park the bus and soak up pressure with a 1-0 lead. The Roma defeat is a perfect example of that. And we had an even bigger lead in that game. Seems like EV hasn't learned from that embarrassment. If it wasn't for VAR, we would have dropped points. Against any top level team, we would have lost. That's a fact. Don't let the 3 points mask the obvious deficiencies with EV and his approach. I don't think we have the combative type of players who can close down spaces really quickly and a midfield like Athletico that is compact and organized defensively. Raki and Busi are not in that mould.

I agree with you that we're not a team built to defend a lead without the ball. That's clear as day. We're poor at it for different reasons. Imo, (1) lack of players, Messi and Suarez rarely defend (2) no experience, when is the team made defend? Not very often and when we are, we are usually beaten (3) lack of intensity and so on. I'd go as far as to say it's safe to believe Valverde knows this as well.

Now, what you assume is that he all of a sudden (once we're a goal up) decides to sit back and defend. It's possible, but how likely is that? (I highlighted those parts) I believe it's not Valverde who makes the team sit back, but rather our opposition. We are clueless when we're pressed. Be it by a poor team like Eibar (or Valladolid a few days ago in the second half), or more intensely Roma. Roma is an extreme example, but I'll say a few more words about it. A very fine tactical analysis by Nouman. Someone's often posting it here. But, to put things into perspective... if I take a picture pitch in some random moment of the match, what do I see? Our backline narrow since their front three is having each other's back. Their wingbacks freely moving up and down our flanks. Our midfield deep dealing with Shick and Radja between the lines. De Rossi and Strootman left alone controlling the match with Messi and Suarez out of sight. Now, question. Do you think he wanted to defend all the time with 8 outfield players vs 10? I highly doubt it. He couldn't change a thing which is on him.

In short, I don't believe this team is able to control the match for 90 minutes. Against midtable opponents? Maybe. Against CL powerhouses like City, Liverpool, Bayern etc.? No way. We need to be solid without the ball, it's a must. Don't think it's us being pressed we should moan about, it's going to happen sooner or later, but rather us not being able to cope. Regarding opponents, when they're a goal down, of course they'll attack you. Nothing new. Imo, has little to do with Valverde's approach and calls.

 

[clemente]

Wow he actually makes me miss Lucho, its crazy, didn't know it was possible. Even though we had the worst midfield, at least when we had a goal, we tried to score another one. I think we have the scariest attacking team in the world and they are forced to play this insecure defensive style, sad... Like Xavi said, teams are either comfortable when they have the ball, or when they don't have the ball, and this is the worst possible manager we could have gotten, got this job just because of his barca background decades ago.

 

[FC433]

I agree with you that we're not a team built to defend a lead without the ball. That's clear as day. We're poor at it for different reasons. Imo, (1) lack of players, Messi and Suarez rarely defend (2) no experience, when is the team made defend? Not very often and when we are, we are usually beaten (3) lack of intensity and so on. I'd go as far as to say it's safe to believe Valverde knows this as well.

Now, what you assume is that he all of a sudden (once we're a goal up) decides to sit back and defend. It's possible, but how likely is that? (I highlighted those parts) I believe it's not Valverde who makes the team sit back, but rather our opposition. We are clueless when we're pressed. Be it by a poor team like Eibar (or Valladolid a few days ago in the second half), or more intensely Roma. Roma is an extreme example, but I'll say a few more words about it. A very fine tactical analysis by Nouman. Someone's often posting it here. But, to put things into perspective... if I take a picture pitch in some random moment of the match, what do I see? Our backline narrow since their front three is having each other's back. Their wingbacks freely moving up and down our flanks. Our midfield deep dealing with Shick and Radja between the lines. De Rossi and Strootman left alone controlling the match with Messi and Suarez out of sight. Now, question. Do you think he wanted to defend all the time with 8 outfield players vs 10? I highly doubt it. He couldn't change a thing which is on him.

In short, I don't believe this team is able to control the match for 90 minutes. Against midtable opponents? Maybe. Against CL powerhouses like City, Liverpool, Bayern etc.? No way. We need to be solid without the ball, it's a must. Don't think it's us being pressed we should moan about, it's going to happen sooner or later, but rather us not being able to cope. Regarding opponents, when they're a goal down, of course they'll attack you. Nothing new. Imo, has little to do with Valverde's approach and calls.

You are making a good argument and you could be right. It is pretty difficult to examine the situation. Was Valverde the reason for playing defensive or did the opponent force him to? Tough. But what I would say is that have we ever being forced to play defensive against midtable teams before? I do not remember, but I could be wrong.

One could say that teams have improved; therefore, it is unfair to compare Valverde and previous managers. But I still believe that it is because of Valverde and his tactical decisions that encourage teams to attack us. He is a very conservative and that is quite clear.

I also want to say that even if he was actually forced to play defensive that does not mean it is okay. That would just mean he is a very poor manager instead of being a coward. When one is forced to defend a 1-0 lead with Messi, Dembele, Coutinho and Suarez by average teams that I do not really know, sad?

 

[serghei]

Ok, So the evidence of your claims, Are in in your head, And even though every game since 2009, Has been documented in detail, You can't point me to anything in the real world, That i can investigate to verify the said claims and evidence in your head?

So it appears your claims are unfalsifiable, This is absolutely amazing, Never thought of doing that, When being stuck in a corner in an argument before.

As for the "Couldn't care less what your stats say", Well this doesn't get said by someone who's open-minded and actually looking to gain knowledge or seek a truth, Limited as they are, They're still a reflection and an interpretation of the real world.

But what do you expect from some one, Who backs up his claims by evidence that can only be found in his head, What a joke.

All you said so far, other than all the noise in between, is that Guardiola also used to defend leads at times. Which is true about any manager ever and proves absolutely nothing.

And I have said that, with Guardiola, it was an exception, and that during Guardiola the team was about dominating the opponent by keeping the ball much much more than it was about anything else. Even the so called 'defending the lead' was done in a more proactive way, maybe not looking to score 3-4 goals, but still not giving the ball to the other team and holding on on the ropes.

How can you ask for proof about that? It's a sensible value judgment.

This team in general is different to what he has had at Bilbao/Espanyol etc.

Those teams had the workhorses and discipline to be able to sit back and defend if needed well while not Atletico but still good enough. With Barca you really can't as we have a number of players who don't fit that criteria.

We are a team that is best off keeping the ball and being on the front foot to defend. We just aren't built to defend a lead without the ball.

Well put. After this approach has been proven to be calamitous vs Roma it's pure stupidity to go this road again.

 

[Joan]

You are making a good argument and you could be right. It is pretty difficult to examine the situation. Was Valverde the reason for playing defensive or did the opponent force him to? Tough. But what I would say is that have we ever being forced to play defensive against midtable teams before? I do not remember, but I could be wrong.

One could say that teams have improved; therefore, it is unfair to compare Valverde and previous managers. But I still believe that it is because of Valverde and his tactical decisions that encourage teams to attack us. He is a very conservative and that is quite clear.

I also want to say that even if he was actually forced to play defensive that does not mean it is okay. That would just mean he is a very poor manager instead of being a coward. When one is forced to defend a 1-0 lead with Messi, Dembele, Coutinho and Suarez by average teams that I do not really know, sad?

It's a tough one. I could've approached it more holistically, but wanted to counter the quotes. Now, why I think it's this hard for us to defend without the ball or escape the press... (1) We rarely have to do so. Most La Liga teams park the bus against us, give us tons of space and time. Our backline and the midfield don't have to cope with pressure, they can take it slow. On the other hand, when we're pressed, I feel like we're fish out of water. (2) Did we ever have to defend with 8 outfield players? Messi never worked hard, but it's worse than ever. Then there's Suarez. (3) Now, our players have changed. Raki is no Xavi, he scrambles under pressure, Coutinho's defending's questionable. It's harder to escape the press. At least, that's my opinion. I could go on and come to Valverde's tactics. Agree with you his decision sometimes invite teams to attack us, but imo, it's been taken out of proportions completely ignoring the other side which, I believe, is more important.

 

[soul24rage]

I agree with you that we're not a team built to defend a lead without the ball. That's clear as day. We're poor at it for different reasons. Imo, (1) lack of players, Messi and Suarez rarely defend (2) no experience, when is the team made defend? Not very often and when we are, we are usually beaten (3) lack of intensity and so on. I'd go as far as to say it's safe to believe Valverde knows this as well.

Now, what you assume is that he all of a sudden (once we're a goal up) decides to sit back and defend. It's possible, but how likely is that? (I highlighted those parts) I believe it's not Valverde who makes the team sit back, but rather our opposition. We are clueless when we're pressed. Be it by a poor team like Eibar (or Valladolid a few days ago in the second half), or more intensely Roma. Roma is an extreme example, but I'll say a few more words about it. A very fine tactical analysis by Nouman. Someone's often posting it here. But, to put things into perspective... if I take a picture pitch in some random moment of the match, what do I see? Our backline narrow since their front three is having each other's back. Their wingbacks freely moving up and down our flanks. Our midfield deep dealing with Shick and Radja between the lines. De Rossi and Strootman left alone controlling the match with Messi and Suarez out of sight. Now, question. Do you think he wanted to defend all the time with 8 outfield players vs 10? I highly doubt it. He couldn't change a thing which is on him.

In short, I don't believe this team is able to control the match for 90 minutes. Against midtable opponents? Maybe. Against CL powerhouses like City, Liverpool, Bayern etc.? No way. We need to be solid without the ball, it's a must. Don't think it's us being pressed we should moan about, it's going to happen sooner or later, but rather us not being able to cope. Regarding opponents, when they're a goal down, of course they'll attack you. Nothing new. Imo, has little to do with Valverde's approach and calls.

Great post. I also agree with the 3 points that you mentioned which is why I'm not exactly sure how we can deal with this problem. We aren't that good at defending deep (Mats and Messi usually masked that) and we don't have the players or the manager to be able to effectively press as a team and with intensity. The only thing we're good at is keeping possession but we need to win the ball back by either pressuring or defending deep and hope for a goalkick or a throw in.

Even if we drop deep, we still look vulnerable. Would adding another player to defend help lower those chances of vulnerability? If the answer is yes, then we should really try something like a 433 false 9 Messi with Dembele and Malcom on the wings and Arthur and Coutinho (players who I think can withstand the opponent's pressure) as our interiors as we can't carry both Messi and Suarez not defending in the CL. With the 433 I mentioned, at least we have an extra player who can help defend. Using the Roma game as an example, maybe the two interiors could have pressured Strootman and De Rossi to not have any space while the CBs and the pivot could have dealt with Dzeko, Shick and Radja. The fullbacks would cover Roma's wingbacks.

I usually post that tactical analysis by Nouman as I really do think that it was really more on EV than on the players. If he tried to switch something (bring Dembele or Paulinho on and switch to a 433) and still lost, then I wouldn't be that mad at him as I am right now. From the first minute to the last, we never looked in the game and that was my biggest issue.

 

[henias]

I agree with you that we're not a team built to defend a lead without the ball. That's clear as day. We're poor at it for different reasons. Imo, (1) lack of players, Messi and Suarez rarely defend (2) no experience, when is the team made defend? Not very often and when we are, we are usually beaten (3) lack of intensity and so on. I'd go as far as to say it's safe to believe Valverde knows this as well.

Now, what you assume is that he all of a sudden (once we're a goal up) decides to sit back and defend. It's possible, but how likely is that? (I highlighted those parts) I believe it's not Valverde who makes the team sit back, but rather our opposition. We are clueless when we're pressed. Be it by a poor team like Eibar (or Valladolid a few days ago in the second half), or more intensely Roma. Roma is an extreme example, but I'll say a few more words about it. A very fine tactical analysis by Nouman. Someone's often posting it here. But, to put things into perspective... if I take a picture pitch in some random moment of the match, what do I see? Our backline narrow since their front three is having each other's back. Their wingbacks freely moving up and down our flanks. Our midfield deep dealing with Shick and Radja between the lines. De Rossi and Strootman left alone controlling the match with Messi and Suarez out of sight. Now, question. Do you think he wanted to defend all the time with 8 outfield players vs 10? I highly doubt it. He couldn't change a thing which is on him.

In short, I don't believe this team is able to control the match for 90 minutes. Against midtable opponents? Maybe. Against CL powerhouses like City, Liverpool, Bayern etc.? No way. We need to be solid without the ball, it's a must. Don't think it's us being pressed we should moan about, it's going to happen sooner or later, but rather us not being able to cope. Regarding opponents, when they're a goal down, of course they'll attack you. Nothing new. Imo, has little to do with Valverde's approach and calls.

I really dont mind "defending the lead" if we have to. We dont have to "control" the game because EV doesnt really know how to at all. That's not his forte at all.

But what throws me off is the fact that when he defends, he just defends with no answers. No intention to break on the counter, which could be very devastating if you have pacey players like Semedo or Dembele. This could potentially finish off opponents with ease.

But it seems like Valverde doesnt like that, and just had to pack the midfield with more midfielders and expect us to defend like a solid unit which is impossible. You are right that this sort of lineup cant "defend the lead" against teams like Liverpool or City. Roma already happened once, and it can very well happen again.

But if u sub ur fastest attacker for a slow defensive midfielder, then u cant say that's not on him who tries to see the game out defensively. We are more likely to concede without any replies which is more risky imo.

He is still very conservative in terms of coaching and tactics wise, hasnt really shown much.