Pep Guardiola

[Xaviniesta]

This is the second CL Final that was decided by an ugly foul committed by a strong and dirty defensive player.
Sergio Ramos did it to Salah in 2018 and R?diger did it to KDB yesterday.
In both cases the defensive player continued playing while the losing team's best player was out and severely hurt.

I don't want to accuse Tuchel of planning R?diger's action, but it certainly helped his team win.

kdb would have been in kante's pocket for 90 min instead of 60, no difference. city plays siimply couldn't step up as seen in previous years

 

[KingLeo10]

All I know is that since the separation in 2012, Messi, Xavi, Iniesta won one of the toughest CLs where they beat Pep H2H, while Pep couldn't close the deal versus an inexperienced Chelsea.

Still grateful for his 4 years (one of the best stretches if not the best in football history), but he needed this humbling.

 

[Fati_Future_BallonDor]

All I know is that since the separation in 2012, Messi, Xavi, Iniesta won one of the toughest CLs where they beat Pep H2H, while Pep couldn't close the deal versus an inexperienced Chelsea.

Still grateful for his 4 years (one of the best stretches if not the best in football history), but he needed this humbling.

Pep is the bigger loser as he should have won atleast one cl when you are coaching Bayern and City while spending nearly a billion but we had also embarrassing losses since 2012.

 

[KingLeo10]

Pep is the bigger loser as he should have won atleast one cl when you are coaching Bayern and City while spending nearly a billion but we had also embarrassing losses since 2012.

Trophies are the only thing that matters. I'd take 1 CL win and 3 embarrassments every 4 years versus 4 years of being semi-finalists and finalists but never winning. I'm not saying we've done well since the board was disastrous post MSN, but I'm saying Messi, Xavi, Iniesta proved they can win CL without Pep...but he hasn't done the same.

 

[malvolio]

Trophies are the only thing that matters. I'd take 1 CL win and 3 embarrassments every 4 years versus 4 years of being semi-finalists and finalists but never winning. I'm not saying we've done well since the board was disastrous post MSN, but I'm saying Messi, Xavi, Iniesta proved they can win CL without Pep...but he hasn't done the same.

More like we proved that you can win everything with the greatest attacking trio ever assembled at club level. Xavi was managing whatsapp groups and saving Lucho's ass from getting fired back then.

 

[Fati_Future_BallonDor]

More like we proved that you can win everything with the greatest attacking trio ever assembled at club level. Xavi was managing whatsapp groups and saving Lucho's ass from getting fired back then.

This was also my first thought but Pep has also spent nearly a billion and still didnt win CL.

 

[Fati_Future_BallonDor]

In terms of humbling, imo he is humble. He always praise the players for his success and says all the time that Messi is the GOAT and he made him the life easier in barcelona.

 

[JamDav1982]

Pep over praises just about every player/coach he is ever asked about.

Every Barca coach appointed will lead Barca to glory etc. Every player is one of best he has ever coached in some aspect.

It is not humble it comes across as fake more than anything even if it does work for him.

Would bet bottom dollar Pep thinks players lost him the game yesterday.

Best coach in world for me but but a bit of a fake twat that puts on an act.

 

[BBZ8800]

^
outdated, yet won 3 leagues out of 5 and reached the CL final.

Barca is also winning league titles all the time, yet we reached one CL semis in the last 6 years, right?

Again, in a league:
1. you don't play against top teams.
30 out of 38 matches are against teams who are way weaker than you.
So, winning a league is not about beating Liverpool/Chelsea, but how to find a way to win as many smaller matches as possible.
And in that sense, technical football, domination and possession is mathematically the best way to go.
But then, there's a problem: players who are technical and possession merchants against West Ham and West Bromwich, might not be the best players for matches against Bayern, Chelsea, Liverpool.
Why?
2. Well, pressure.
When you play a round 13 in a league, there is no sudden death.
If you lose, there are 25 matches left. If you know that you are the best, there is a lot of time to fix your mistakes.
In a CL KO matches, you often have only 20-45 minutes to fix the mistake.
And those possession merchants against weaker teams often crumble in KO matches, just like our good guys Mats, Busi, Alba, Roberto and similar.

Also, the same as seen on Barca's example:
Suarez can bang 30 la liga goals against domestic teams.
Yet he scores 1 goal in 10 matches in a CL.
Messi can bang 50 in La liga.
Yet on away KO matches, his record is very poor.

League matches are a low pressure, low stakes over 38 rounds.
But 90 or 180 minutes of KO matches is a different story.

Also, there is an eternal debate about Pep's style:
1. Whether it was GOAT in 2008-2012 and later failed because he didn't have the right players?
2. Or that style was always extremely risky and not good enough for Europe, but worked in 2009 and 2011 due to insane individual talent of prime Messi, Xavi, Iniesta, Alves, Busi?

I am always leaning towards no2.
And I don't like when fans want to go back to our basics/Pep's style.
Because even Pep himself can't win with it for 8 years with Bayern and City.
How on Earth will any other coach at Barca get better results than Pep, especially in the era after Messi, Xavi, Iniesta?

Even this year, it repeats: Pep's teams rarely steal victories.
They can win only if they are miles better than everyone.
If they are 50:50, they lose in majority of cases due to pressure, weak mental strength, individual errors etc.

It seems that Barca/Spain/Pep were winning only when we had a combo of either:
1) Pep + Messi + Xavi, Iniesta, Busi = Barca
2) Xavi, Iniesta, Busi = Spain

When Xavi declined, TikiTaka died in KO matches.
Spain died, Barca died (except in 2015 with Msn who were worth 600m Euros), Pep's CL results died.

So:
1. Is that style really worth it, and we are just not executing it properly?
2. Or it worked once in 100 years with Mr. TikiTaka himself (Xavi) paired with once in a lifetime team Messi-Iniesta-Alves-Busi paired with Pep?

For league competitions, it is awesome tactics.
On NT level, it is awesome for qualifiers and group stage.
For KO matches, it is more or less a style with very low chances for success which works only when everything aligns perfectly.

Pep asked a lot of years ago: maybe the system is a problem?

Well, numbers and stats say: yes.

 

[FC433]

Barca is also winning league titles all the time, yet we reached one CL semis in the last 6 years, right?

Again, in a league:
1. you don't play against top teams.
30 out of 38 matches are against teams who are way weaker than you.
So, winning a league is not about beating Liverpool/Chelsea, but how to find a way to win as many smaller matches as possible.
And in that sense, technical football, domination and possession is mathematically the best way to go.
But then, there's a problem: players who are technical and possession merchants against West Ham and West Bromwich, might not be the best players for matches against Bayern, Chelsea, Liverpool.
Why?
2. Well, pressure.
When you play a round 13 in a league, there is no sudden death.
If you lose, there are 25 matches left. If you know that you are the best, there is a lot of time to fix your mistakes.
In a CL KO matches, you often have only 20-45 minutes to fix the mistake.
And those possession merchants against weaker teams often crumble in KO matches, just like our good guys Mats, Busi, Alba, Roberto and similar.

Also, the same as seen on Barca's example:
Suarez can bang 30 la liga goals against domestic teams.
Yet he scores 1 goal in 10 matches in a CL.
Messi can bang 50 in La liga.
Yet on away KO matches, his record is very poor.

League matches are a low pressure, low stakes over 38 rounds.
But 90 or 180 minutes of KO matches is a different story.

Also, there is an eternal debate about Pep's style:
1. Whether it was GOAT in 2008-2012 and later failed because he didn't have the right players?
2. Or that style was always extremely risky and not good enough for Europe, but worked in 2009 and 2011 due to insane individual talent of prime Messi, Xavi, Iniesta, Alves, Busi?

I am always leaning towards no2.
And I don't like when fans want to go back to our basics/Pep's style.
Because even Pep himself can't win with it for 8 years with Bayern and City.
How on Earth will any other coach at Barca get better results than Pep, especially in the era after Messi, Xavi, Iniesta?

Even this year, it repeats: Pep's teams rarely steal victories.
They can win only if they are miles better than everyone.
If they are 50:50, they lose in majority of cases due to pressure, weak mental strength, individual errors etc.

It seems that Barca/Spain/Pep were winning only when we had a combo of either:
1) Pep + Messi + Xavi, Iniesta, Busi = Barca
2) Xavi, Iniesta, Busi = Spain

When Xavi declined, TikiTaka died in KO matches.
Spain died, Barca died (except in 2015 with Msn who were worth 600m Euros), Pep's CL results died.

So:
1. Is that style really worth it, and we are just not executing it properly?
2. Or it worked once in 100 years with Mr. TikiTaka himself (Xavi) paired with once in a lifetime team Messi-Iniesta-Alves-Busi paired with Pep?

For league competitions, it is awesome tactics.
On NT level, it is awesome for qualifiers and group stage.
For KO matches, it is more or less a style with very low chances for success which works only when everything aligns perfectly.

Pep asked a lot of years ago: maybe the system is a problem?

Well, numbers and stats say: yes.

I am sorry, but you cannot compare winning the PL to winning LL. Pep has dominated the best league in the world, not once, but three times.


Edit: do you genuinely believe that a manager's style that won:

3X Premier Leagues
1X FA Cup
4X League Cup
2X Super Cup

in five seasons to be outdated? That is absurd.

 

[Fati_Future_BallonDor]

When we talk about ligue titles Pep is number one, the way how he dominate Premier league is impressive. If its so easy why other coaches werent able to do that.

 

[DonAK]

KDB broken nose and fractured eye socket. Some may wish to reflect on the comments that were made when he came off.

@Messigician last night

"De Bruyne so soft he quit its only a head ache should have continued playing"

 

[Sterlingfan2000]

When we talk about ligue titles Pep is number one, the way how he dominate Premier league is impressive. If its so easy why other coaches werent able to do that.

True but other clubs don't have 700M net spend and 2 XI.

 

[Fati_Future_BallonDor]

@Messigician last night

"De Bruyne so soft he quit its only a head ache should have continued playing"

True but other clubs don't have 700M net spend and 2 XI.

As is said thats the only negative side of Pep about his domination but United has also spent lots of money and still werent able to win the PL. Its not a guarantee.

 

[FC433]

True but other clubs don't have 700M net spend and 2 XI.

not Pep's fault. There should never be ifs in football. It was not fair to, let us say, CR7 not have Xavi or Iniesta. Does that make Messi any less of a player?