Pelé

Windhook

Windhook

Well-known member
"Done it before them" is overstatement.

Never seen clips of Pele dribbling at top speed with the ball glued at his boots like Messi, nor bombing the shit out of the ball like Roberto Carlos' curve against France in 1997, nor the Marseille roulette popularized by Maradona and Zidane (he's not the inventor obviously). The fact many after Pele applied his tricks is the reason this phrase to gain popularity. But Pele didn't invent all of them. He globalized them, the sport of football, joga bonito, the first football icon. Before him there were no superstars. That's why the whole world respects Pele and honours him.
 
Nazario1985

Nazario1985

Senior Member
Windhook said:
"Done it before them" is overstatement.

Never seen clips of Pele dribbling at top speed with the ball glued at his boots like Messi, nor bombing the shit out of the ball like Roberto Carlos' curve against France in 1997, nor the Marseille roulette popularized by Maradona and Zidane (he's not the inventor obviously). The fact many after Pele applied his tricks is the reason this phrase to gain popularity. But Pele didn't invent all of them. He globalized them, the sport of football, joga bonito, the first football icon. Before him there were no superstars. That's why the whole world respects Pele and honours him.
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you can't compare two different eras that's stupid as hell.

Have you ever touched the 50's / 60's football ? did you see garrincha sending people to hospital with that ball ?

Same for other sports, the fastest man back them wont even qualify to the next Olympics

You have to compare relatively to each era.

In 50 years players today will seem so outdated and comes some big rain "never seen Messi do what a 18 years old is doing in 2073"

But the pioneers always have a special place no matter what, he dared do things out of the usual (with others but he was the most successful).

Players today have the best medicine/physicians offered to them, lives in palaces ...etc

Some huge names in the past struggling with the rent !
 
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JohnN

JohnN

Senior Member
Yes, comparing eras so far apart has little meaning. But football has been in a pretty steady level since the start of this century. The meta has changed and will continue to do so, physical training and nutrition has improved but the difference from 2000 to 2020 is much smaller than 2000 to 1980 and astonishingly smaller than 1980 vs 1960.
Margin of improvement does get smaller as in all things.
 
M

Maradona37

Well-known member
Windhook said:
"Done it before them" is overstatement.

Never seen clips of Pele dribbling at top speed with the ball glued at his boots like Messi, nor bombing the shit out of the ball like Roberto Carlos' curve against France in 1997, nor the Marseille roulette popularized by Maradona and Zidane (he's not the inventor obviously). The fact many after Pele applied his tricks is the reason this phrase to gain popularity. But Pele didn't invent all of them. He globalized them, the sport of football, joga bonito, the first football icon. Before him there were no superstars. That's why the whole world respects Pele and honours him.
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I think Pele is top three ever with Messi and Maradona, and I think that's the common consensus. But for something analogous...

I am a massive film and TV show fan. Ingmar Bergman and Alfred Hitchcock made some great films, and the Twilight Zone is one of the greatest TV shows of all time.

Yet when I watch old films and the Twilight Zone, I often see stuff that has been copied to death - however in the 50s and 60s, it was revolutionary and never seen before. But watching it now, while it's brilliant, you can sometimes anticipate the twists in films like Vertigo or episodes of the Twilight Zone due to seeing it so much since these films were made - but it's because of these films and their influence that it has become the norm.

A fully trained Pele with this era's advantages could definitely rival Messi. But it is another example of 'standing on the shoulders of giants' - as with TV shows borrowing from the Twilight Zone, the likes of Pele and Cruyff (especially the latter given his influence on tactics and Barca, his legacy continues in the game to this day), modern players are standing on the shoulders of giants. That is all we can really say.

It gets silly though, like when I read some guy saying Pele wouldn't get on Norwich's bench if he played now - Prime Pele would still be a top two player in the world with prime Messi I think if trained to modern standards.
 
T

Temptation

Well-known member
Anyone who doubts Pele is a fucking clown.


Pele is the most complete forward ever and could do almost everything to the highest level. GOAT.
 
M

Maradona37

Well-known member
Temptation said:
Anyone who doubts Pele is a fucking clown.


Pele is the most complete forward ever and could do almost everything to the highest level. GOAT.
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They are clowns, yes. He's definitely a top three player of all time, and whether it's him, Messi or Maradona is a matter of opinion. To me he's third, but I understand if someone puts him first.
 
M

Maradona37

Well-known member
KingLeo10 said:
General Tiers

Messi, Maradona, Pele (by reputation among players/managers and some videos)

DiStefano (just by reputation among players and managers), Cruyff, Beckenbauer, CR7, Puskas

Maldini, R9 (only because of injuries), ZZ, Eusebio, Romario, MVB, G. Muller, Baresi, maybe Xavi
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I'd say this is about right. With a few more names (Garrincha, Zico, Michael Laudrup and some others) who could go in the second or third tier. R9 in tier two on pure talent, and near the top of tier 2 (I know they're not ordered)

The thing about Cristiano Ronaldo is that people know he's been a great player in his prime - the pushback comes from people trying to force him into the trinity, when he doesn't belong there at all. And they use poor reasoning to have him there like stats, trophies, longevity. It would be fair to say he comes from fourth to eighth or so based on your preference. It is highly disrespectful to the likes of Cruyff, Beckenbauer, Di Stefano, Puskas, R9 et al to just assume he's better than them because he's currently active and much more famous than they are.

That doesn't apply to Messi though as he's clearly a top three talent ever. With Ronaldo it's more ambiguous - you can definitely argue those players named are better than him, but his crazy fans get angry if you say he's anything other than top two with Messi. This is what accounts for people being repelled and going too far the other way and calling him outside the top 10 etc.
 
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