Lionel Messi - v7
- Thread starter Barcaman
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BarcaOG
Banned
[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q9J4liS69eM[/youtube]
Diario AS uploaded this compilation of Messi's positional evolution. They compressed every season's heatmaps into an overall season-wide picture. What is fascinating here is that under Valverde, Messi actually looks like he has no idea what he is doing.
Under both Pep and Lucho, Messi's positional range was fairly well-defined.
I know it's hard to draw conclusions from this sort of data, since it doesn't take into account all sorts of other factors but, all else being equal, I'm not surprised Messi and the team had their best seasons when there was a clear tactical-positional structure to the team and to Messi's movement.
It can be argued that Valverde has simply given Messi 'freedom', but I think that's lazy. Even if Messi has continued to perform, I think his influence has dissipated under Valverde, because the heat maps show he marauds basically everywhere.
EDIT I don't know how to embed youtube videos. I tried using the function quick-posting offers but that didn't seem to work. Here's the link:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q9J4liS69eM
Diario AS uploaded this compilation of Messi's positional evolution. They compressed every season's heatmaps into an overall season-wide picture. What is fascinating here is that under Valverde, Messi actually looks like he has no idea what he is doing.
Under both Pep and Lucho, Messi's positional range was fairly well-defined.
I know it's hard to draw conclusions from this sort of data, since it doesn't take into account all sorts of other factors but, all else being equal, I'm not surprised Messi and the team had their best seasons when there was a clear tactical-positional structure to the team and to Messi's movement.
It can be argued that Valverde has simply given Messi 'freedom', but I think that's lazy. Even if Messi has continued to perform, I think his influence has dissipated under Valverde, because the heat maps show he marauds basically everywhere.
EDIT I don't know how to embed youtube videos. I tried using the function quick-posting offers but that didn't seem to work. Here's the link:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q9J4liS69eM
serghei
Senior Member
Good material, but it is well known that Messi's best seasons were when he was playing between RW and False 9 positions. Also well known that Valverde has him everywhere. So it is no surprise that his heat map under Valverde is less coherent and more scattered.
Is basically another confirmation that backs up the criticism on Valverde, and how he can't have us creating jack shit without Messi.
Is basically another confirmation that backs up the criticism on Valverde, and how he can't have us creating jack shit without Messi.
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Mitchell1978
Senior Member
you can say a lot of things about Valverde but for better or worse Messi's influence on the team, the past 2 seasons, was bigger then ever, so what you saying is simply not true
https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/messi-is-more-dominant-than-ever-and-barcelona-is-more-dependent/
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BarcaOG
Banned
You're right. Maybe I didn't express myself clearly: Messi has definitely carried the team during most of Valverde's time. What I mean is that perhaps the overall, team-wide lack of positional structure has led Messi to pick up a lot of slack and lead the team in the absence of tactical direction. The result is a Messi who has had to do it all, most of the time. And while he has been able to do that, the overall result is 1) that the team depends, even and ever more on him and 2) that Messi himself loses a lot of energy. Under Pep and Lucho he had a clear role and could reserve his energy for that. That's what I mean by a dissipation of influence, although I understand it is probably not the best way to phrase it.
serghei
Senior Member
The best way to put it is that even if Messi's influence is higher in a free role, the team overall plays worse, when Messi doesn't have a well defined role and a clearer position.
The idea is for the team to play better, even if it means Messi individually produces worse numbers as his influence is more limited.
We have added two of the best individuals in the world in their position this summer, two world class players in Griezmann and Frenkie de Jong. There is every condition for a more limited, and more clear position for Messi, except one. The presence of an astute and competent manager.
The idea is for the team to play better, even if it means Messi individually produces worse numbers as his influence is more limited.
We have added two of the best individuals in the world in their position this summer, two world class players in Griezmann and Frenkie de Jong. There is every condition for a more limited, and more clear position for Messi, except one. The presence of an astute and competent manager.
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Mitchell1978
Senior Member
another article on the matter: https://tacticalfouling.com/2019/08/16/barcelona-deep-dive-on-messi-and-ter-stegens-floor-raising-valverdes-pragmatism-and-fitting-in-the-new-signings/
the way i see it: in those early pep teams for example you had a squad filled with world class players and a great coach, a world class team add Messi to that and you have the best team in the world (perhaps in history), he had a slightly smaller role because those teams didn't him to do everything
now barça have an incompetent manager and in the squad, apart from Messi, a couple of world class players, multiple declining players and several flops, so basically a mediocre squad, so he has to play a bigger role, otherwise the team won't compete for trophies no more
te amo barca
Blaugrana al vent
Can't stand it when posters say we have a shit squad. These same players would be firing on all the fucking cylinders under a competent manager/in another team. Even Rakitic walks in the starting 11 of most of the top teams.
FCB1987
Banned
you seem rattled comrade
Of course "liked by Messi2140". Your little puppy account following and liking everything you do
JohnN
Senior Member
He is a cheat code.. since 2006.. amazing!
BarcaOG
Banned
I basically agree, the only exception being that I also do not think our squad is mediocre. Rather, Valverde's inapt 'tactics' and lack of direction makes our squad look bad, a lot worse than it actually is, in terms of sheer talent.
Look at what Pep and Klopp manage to do in england: in their teams, players like Otamendi, Zinchenko and Origi, who are a lot less talented than our own players, manage to shine. That's the result of world-class coaching.
Kul_z
Senior Member
Look at pique's face, he knows
Ernesto GOATverde Tejedor
Banned
Can't wait to see this cosmic kite play again. Not only is he carrying this club, he is carrying this whole fucking sport. Nobody has magic and genius in his boots these days. Ney has some but is all over the place.
Mbappe is great but a maverick he is not. Football is becoming boring. There is a desperate need for new young LEGIT cracks to come through because all I see now are good functional players - no wizardry. Leo is alone, casting his spells.
Mbappe is great but a maverick he is not. Football is becoming boring. There is a desperate need for new young LEGIT cracks to come through because all I see now are good functional players - no wizardry. Leo is alone, casting his spells.
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