Lionel Messi - v7

[JamDav1982]

What do I have backwards? I am really asking, because I haven't understood what you mean.

You claim folk 'hate' Messi and have admitted it which is a lie for a start.

But you assume this 'hate' is the reason they criticise Messi when in fact you have it backwards and the criticism of the performances/attitude is what leads to the opinion of him.

 

[JamDav1982]

In 15/16, and in 17/18, we simply had a shit first half of the season, it wasn`t because we "prioritised" the CL over the league, in 16/17 we were always in the title-race.
CL is always the biggest trophy, but we do value league titles, contrary to popular belief.

All the biggest clubs go out for both and top managers Zidane/Pep/Klop/Fergie will all say League is the true barometer of where a team is.

Barca would take a CL ahead of the league this season no doubt as it is the more glamorous trophy but it is not prioritised or held up as the team proving themselves the best.

 

[sikkboy]

Ah the old 'Madrid didnt care about league' argument.

Pathetic stuff.

Real won it as the best ever CL player turned up in that competition to level he was not even week in week out in La Liga.

Real team overperformed and Barca who were the better team domestically week in week out and when the two sides met more often than not failed in CL.

Messi and Barca were losing to teams they were better than... yet you go with the poor Messi could do nothing as he had shit team mates.

check the words in brackets, think you'll find I've made a comment on your first point.
So whiie you say they actually did give a shit about the league yet Ronaldo and chums coudn't do it in that competition but somehow managed to in the one where the competition is so much higher. Imo they prioritised the CLs over the domestic league.

I'll reiterate, Madrid won those CLs because when their main man wasn't able to get them through his team mates came up with big big goals. I think there was probably just the one Cl Final where 'Ronaldo, the greatest CL player ever' I think it was had a decisive game. (Anyway, I'm not here to denigrate CR) I'm trying to add a bit of balance to the lop-sided critiscism that Messi gets from his own fans.

 

[JamDav1982]

check the words in brackets, think you'll find I've made a comment on your first point.
So whiie you say they actually did give a shit about the league yet Ronaldo and chums coudn't do it in that competition but somehow managed to in the one where the competition is so much higher. Imo they prioritised the CLs over the domestic league.

I'll reiterate, Madrid won those CLs because when their main man wasn't able to get them through his team mates came up with big big goals. I think there was probably just the one Cl Final where 'Ronaldo, the greatest CL player ever' I think it was had a decisive game. (Anyway, I'm not here to denigrate CR) I'm trying to add a bit of balance to the lop-sided critiscism that Messi gets from his own fans.

As I said. Real were not the better team in head to head or in league across a lot of that time... but they and Ronaldo overperfomed in CL and got decent bit of luck.

Barca who were the better team for large parts of that and proved it in the league and head to head often... but Barca and Messi underpeformed too often against other teams they were better than.

You are adding to the lopsided argument not balancing it.

The argument that Barca had inferior team to Real or other teams like Juve, Roma, Atletico etc who eliminated them doesnt hold up.

 

[sikkboy]

In 15/16, and in 17/18, we simply had a shit first half of the season, it wasn`t because we "prioritised" the CL over the league, in 16/17 we were always in the title-race.
CL is always the biggest trophy, but we do value league titles, contrary to popular belief.

Yes, and I know that's the case, Madrid would take everything going if they were allowed to, which team wouldn't! I watched almost as many Madrid games through those years as I did Barca games. Your squad just seemed to lack the focus necessary for grinding out the dull domestic games. Also, iirc your main goalscorer was a bit iffy in part through spells that did in fact make a difference to your points total, and ultimately cost you. Your last double team, was it 17/18 was absolutely outstanding, closest team I've seen to ripping the pish like the 2010-11 Barca.

 

[Morten]

All the biggest clubs go out for both and top managers Zidane/Pep/Klop/Fergie will all say League is the true barometer of where a team is.

Barca would take a CL ahead of the league this season no doubt as it is the more glamorous trophy but it is not prioritised or held up as the team proving themselves the best.

I think if any club could pick between a league title and CL, they would pick CL, every single season, its just the bigger trophy.
That said, league titles are important, it would have felt a lot better if you just dropped point one more time during the 15/16 season, then we`d have been "proven" both domestically and in Europe back to back, instead of being seen as "CL-merchants", despite literally only ending up in 2nd place by 1 point that season(ok, 2 points because of h2h but still).

17/18 was genuine bad, but 15/16 was a 90 points season, so this "CL-merchant"-label during our 3-peat is not quite fair.

 

[JamDav1982]

Yes, and I know that's the case, Madrid would take everything going if they were allowed to, which team wouldn't! I watched almost as many Madrid games through those years as I did Barca games. Your squad just seemed to lack the focus necessary for grinding out the dull domestic games. Also, iirc your main goalscorer was a bit iffy in part through spells that did in fact make a difference to your points total, and ultimately cost you. Your last double team, was it 17/18 was absolutely outstanding, closest team I've seen to ripping the pish like the 2010-11 Barca.

Except they didnt just fail to win the league due to 'dull domestic games' in most of those seasons they could have won the league if got better results vs Barca/Atletico.

Even when they did win the league in 15/16 Barca beat them on head to head and 4-0 in Bernabeu.

So this idea they were better side but failed to beat the smaller clubs in comparison to Barca is also nonsense.

 

[Rory]

Perfectly reasonable to likes of you who is also hysterical it seems.

The old 'you hate Messi' argument is about all you claim. Top stuff.

Hahaha I?m hysterical apparently. Brilliant argument that is. And btw I don?t think you hate Messi. I think you try and find any fault possible with him and magnify it in ways you wouldn?t anyone else but that?s fine you can do that. If all you believe I?ve said in this whole time is you = Messi hater then you must be pretty dim

 

[JamDav1982]

I think if any club could pick between a league title and CL, they would pick CL, every single season, its just the bigger trophy.
That said, league titles are important, it would have felt a lot better if you just dropped point one more time during the 15/16 season, then we`d have been "proven" both domestically and in Europe back to back, instead of being seen as "CL-merchants", despite literally only ending up in 2nd place by 1 point that season(ok, 2 points because of h2h but still).

17/18 was genuine bad, but 15/16 was a 90 points season, so this "CL-merchant"-label during our 3-peat is not quite fair.

CL is more prestigious but more random and less a barometer of a teams quality across that season.

That is what all the top coaches will say.

Barca were better team domestically and in head to head across majority of that time even if by small margins. The point is Barca underperformed in CL and Real/Ronaldo overperformed in that competition which is to their credit.

 

[JamDav1982]

Hahaha I?m hysterical apparently. Brilliant argument that is. And btw I don?t think you hate Messi. I think you try and find any fault possible with him and magnify it in ways you wouldn?t anyone else but that?s fine you can do that. If all you believe I?ve said in this whole time is you = Messi hater then you must be pretty dim

Calma.

You dont have a clue what you are on about.

The actual truth is I talk about Messi as any other player and praise/criticise which some folks like you cant handle.

 

[sikkboy]

As I said. Real were not the better team in head to head or in league across a lot of that time... but they and Ronaldo overperfomed in CL and got decent bit of luck.

Barca who were the better team for large parts of that and proved it in the league and head to head often... but Barca and Messi underpeformed too often against other teams they were better than.

You are adding to the lopsided argument not balancing it.

The argument that Barca had inferior team to Real or other teams like Juve, Roma, Atletico etc who eliminated them doesnt hold up.

We're going round in circles, and I can't be arsed anymore. It's a team game m8, Messi has (until this season) more than added his fair share to the games you and others (Barca fams apparently) hold him responsible for for losing. Others failed to step up, while other bitpart players on successful winning teams have done, and will continue to way after both you and I are long gone. So is life. Drop the hate, I doubt you'll see his likes again. Ohh well.

 

[JamDav1982]

We're going round in circles, and I can't be arsed anymore. It's a team game m8, Messi has (until this season) more than added his fair share to the games you and others (Barca fams apparently) hold him responsible for for losing. Others failed to step up, while other bitpart players on successful winning teams have done, and will continue to way after both you and I are long gone. So is life. Drop the hate, I doubt you'll see his likes again. Ohh well.

Yes it is a team game...which is why I have said every time Messi AND THE TEAM underperformed too often in CL in comparison to Real and teams they got eliminated by.

You cant seem to take the Messi underperformed part and go down the route of 'it was his shit team mates fault' not Messis.

I dont hate him. That is your got to line that says more about you not being able to handle any criticism of him at any point as part of the team.

 

[sikkboy]

Except they didnt just fail to win the league due to 'dull domestic games' in most of those seasons they could have won the league if got better results vs Barca/Atletico.

Even when they did win the league in 15/16 Barca beat them on head to head and 4-0 in Bernabeu.

So this idea they were better side but failed to beat the smaller clubs in comparison to Barca is also nonsense.

Morten just stated that domestically they were there or thereabouts. Madrid had a very good team, and when they needed to vs better European opposition they were able to step up a gear with their multitude of stars all capable of coming up with a big moment. Barca continually fluffed their lines on these occasions. wtaf are you going on about. youre not listening!

 

[JamDav1982]

Morten just stated that domestically they were there or thereabouts. Madrid had a very good team, and when they needed to vs better European opposition they were able to step up a gear with their multitude of stars all capable of coming up with a big moment. Barca continually fluffed their lines on these occasions. wtaf are you going on about. youre not listening!

Yes and I also said that domestically they were close and results vs Barca/Atletico could have won them the league to counter your poor point about them not winning due to not beating the smaller sides.

It backs my argument that it was close and Barca the better side in those seasons.

More nonsense about Madrid 'stepping up a gear' they couldnt in league.

Must just not have been motivated enough in the Classicos or Atletico games eh?

 

[sikkboy]

Yes it is a team game...which is why I have said every time Messi AND THE TEAM underperformed too often in CL in comparison to Real and teams they got eliminated by.

You cant seem to take the Messi underperformed part and go down the route of 'it was his shit team mates fault' not Messis.

I dont hate him. That is your got to line that says more about you not being able to handle any criticism of him at any point as part of the team.

Look m8, you're perfectly entitled to your opinion on Messi, and by reading others' comments on you it does seem that you have a bit of a thing going on against Messi, ho know why!! I've watched perhaps close to 90% on all his games and there are veryveryvery few where he hasn't contributed something worthwhile to the team. If he didn't score he inevitably provides good chances for team mates. I watched every game that gets continually brought up to beat him with and there was not one of those where he didn't contribute positively. How many times do we have to drum it in to people that this game is not a game won by one player, there are 10 others that have roles to play, and sometimes that includes saving goal bound shots, desperate tackles, blocking shts, running into space to take players away, creating chances, and hell even popping up to score the occasional big goal, like Origi or Wynjaldum.

Barcelona fail as a team; they failed due to a variety of reasons but at the end of teh day they failed because they weren't good enough. Messi is probably the last player you should be blaming.