Kylian Muppet

[El Gato]

Yh fairly surprised they get scoop from his camp unless passing off info from elsewhere

 

[Rassvet]

Griezmann cost was about 320m for 5 years at Barca
Neymar cost was about 600m for 5 years at PSG
Ronaldo cost was about 350m for 4 years at Juventus
Messi cost was about 550m for 4 years at Barca

Mbappe cost of 350-400m for 5 years looks quite good. You can say those clubs were irresponsible but City are usually noted for being smart with their business yet they probably spent 200m+ in total on Grealish and would have gone quite a bit higher for Kane who is older, not as good, and more injury prone than Mbappe.

The Haaland and Mbappe deals this summer are both cheap relative to the typical cost of signing proven top class players in today's market.

 

[Birdy]

Didn't say he declined. Read again.
Didn't play his best football under Pep. One of the many examples how Pep's not necessary or a guarantee to facilitate player reaching their ceiling



Utter nonsense. Lovren was terrible under Klopp, a constant liability that had to get subbed out in crunch games at 30 min mark (i.e. memorable 1-4 to Spurs) and club was desperate for Matip to be fit all the time
Lovren's best individual level was at Southampton under Pochettino. Way out his depth in Klopp system

Could talk about other players from that team just as well
Moreno played best football of his career under Emery right now before reinjuring
Kabak was a meme under Klopp despite being Bundesliga rookie of the season year prior

Plenty examples


Yup was fine and doesnt support the claim he was best of his career under Pep because he wasnt (in fact was better even in first season after he left) and null point to hypothesise he'd be better under somebody else as can't test and yet presenting it as fact.


And played the best individual football of his career well after leaving both of them behind


As above, played best football of his career after leaving Pep behind. Wasnt under him he was best


Yup as above, got hurt, got worse and got shipped out


Aye, played rubbish and Pep did nothing to his career despite asking for him and even wanting to keep him at the end
Didnt play best of his career under Pep either


As above, not supporting thesis that players are guaranteed to play best football of their career under Pep

Great coaches are not a guarantee of facilitating player improvement even if you'd like to present it as such as fits your POV

If Yaya was needed and had stayed another 4 years at Barca under Pep, he would have played his best football there and not at City.
Kabak was an emergency solution thrown suddenly into deep waters, why is he even in the discussion?

You are confusing several things here.

A) if X player factually happens to play his 'best football' elsewhere, under another coach other than Jurgen and Pep, that doesn't mean that Pep or Jurgen didn't activate the potential and another coach achieved that (Which was my argument to begin with)

Many reasons can contribute to that, like for instance staying only 1 fucking year under Pep or Jurgen. Hence all those examples you are trying badly to make them sound as counter-examples like Mandjukic or Kroos are irrelevant, as we don't have the duration (sample size) necessary to judge and the short period they stayed under Jurgen and Pep were fine or more than fine

B) If X player is certified B-tier and his ceiling is B-tier no matter who the coach is like Chugrynsky or like Lovren - considering the tier Pool tried to hit with Jurgen -
that's not on the coach.
Lovren might be alright for Zenit, but will never be alright for Liverpool because the lowest necessary for Liverpool is above the highest possible for Lovren.
Simple as that, and Klopp squeezed out the best he could from this limited defenders.

Same for and all the other ridiculous B-tierers Jammy dropped, like Nolito Danilo Otamendi, LOL

C) the argument was about Mbape and whether his ceiling can be achieved.
So, a top WC prospect at the best age, which is going to play many years for a big club and fight for biggest trophies.
And my argument always was that such WC young talent is guaranteed his ceiling (as far as the manager is concerned. If the player for instance has psychological problems he would never attain his ceiling under any manager whatsover)
with someone like Klopp or Pep, and that's dubious under other managers.

To refute that you have to find a counter-example of a similar WC prospect that flopped under them,
not a B-tier utility player who looked better in the B-tier where he always belonged, not someone done looking to get into a retirement league, not someone who couldn't play any more after breaking his legs.

Try again...

 

[El Gato]

If Yaya was needed and had stayed another 4 years at Barca under Pep, he would have played his best football there and not at City.

Dont know it, can't know it, irrelevant

Kabak was an emergency solution thrown suddenly into deep waters, why is he even in the discussion?

Because yet another example of many showing he's not only not improved but even got worse under Klopp contrary to claim that 99% of players attain their best under him. Which if it were true he'd at least maintain the level and it isn't.
Group of these players is much larger for both coaches than trying to pass off

A) if X player factually happens to play his 'best football' elsewhere, under another coach other than Jurgen and Pep, that doesn't mean that Pep or Jurgen didn't activate the potential and another coach achieved that (Which was my argument to begin with)

It does mean the player played best football under a manager different from either Pep or Klopp, contrary to original point

staying only 1 fucking year under Pep or Jurgen.

Absolutely
One of many factors which mean players do not play their best football under Pep or Klopp

Mandjukic or Kroos are irrelevant

Very relevant as just another part of the '1%' of players who dont reach their best under either manager like you put forward

B) If X player is certified B-tier and his ceiling is B-tier no matter who the coach is like Chugrynsky or like Lovren - considering the tier Pool tried to hit with Jurgen -
that's not on the coach.

Sometimes is sometimes isn't.
Irrelevant who is responsible considering you made a categorical statement
Just like if Mbappe comes to Madrid and plays like shit it might not be on manager.
Original point was as shown - that Jurgen and Pep are a guarantee of player reaching ceiling
Which they arent

other ridiculous B-tierers Jammy dropped, like Nolito Danilo Otamendi, LOL

Just more examples how Pep didnt make a positive difference in their football contrary to the statement you agreed with

my argument always was that such WC young talent is guaranteed his ceiling (as far as the manager is concerned. If the player for instance has psychological problems he would never attain his ceiling under any manager whatsover)
with someone like Klopp or Pep, and that's dubious under other managers.

To refute that you have to find a counter-example of a similar WC prospect that flopped under them,
not a B-tier utility player who looked better in the B-tier where he always belonged, not someone done looking to get into a retirement league, not someone who couldn't play any more after breaking his legs.

Yea, retroactively adding level of player even though you simply stated that Pep or Klopp are a guarantee of attaining higher level

There, in case you forgot

Nor is playing for Klopp or Pep a guarantee of attaining a higher level

It is.
Stop being a contrarian for no reason.
You know - we all know - that at least 99% of players attain their maximum under these managers

Could just admit it was silly to agree and clarify and instead going into bone headed mode doubling down on a daft claim

Pep or Klopp like any other manager are no guarantee of unlocking a player's potential and playing best football of their career, for which there's many examples we've already listed. None at all
All depends on fit, circumstances and a number of other factors much more important than coming to play under these specific people

 

[wisconsincule]

If this sign on bonus is true this takes away some of the sting for me.

I still don’t think Vini/Mbappe will be nearly as good on the right side but time will tell.

 

[Morten]

If this sign on bonus is true this takes away some of the sting for me.

I still don’t think Vini/Mbappe will be nearly as good on the right side but time will tell.

Don't worry, we will start with a revolutionary new formation with two left-forwards.

 

[serghei]

If this sign on bonus is true this takes away some of the sting for me.

I still don’t think Vini/Mbappe will be nearly as good on the right side but time will tell.

Not really. It means Madrid are loaded with money. On top of having a new stadium soon.

 

[wisconsincule]

Not really. It means Madrid are loaded with money. On top of having a new stadium soon.

This doesn’t come as a surprise to me though. They have had positive financial reports throughout COVID.

 

[serghei]

This doesn’t come as a surprise to me though. They have had positive financial reports throughout COVID.

I was hoping they aren't that loaded, and Mbappe would choose between money and performance, and he'll choose money in the end and rot at PSG. Now he's gonna get both.

Well played by him. Played his card perfectly.

 

[KingLeo10]

Griezmann cost was about 320m for 5 years at Barca
Neymar cost was about 600m for 5 years at PSG
Ronaldo cost was about 350m for 4 years at Juventus
Messi cost was about 550m for 4 years at Barca

Mbappe cost of 350-400m for 5 years looks quite good. You can say those clubs were irresponsible but City are usually noted for being smart with their business yet they probably spent 200m+ in total on Grealish and would have gone quite a bit higher for Kane who is older, not as good, and more injury prone than Mbappe.

The Haaland and Mbappe deals this summer are both cheap relative to the typical cost of signing proven top class players in today's market.

Messi and CR7 are outliers for their achievements.

Neymar -> overpaid due to PSG

Griezmann -> A Barto classic

At best, it's an okay deal for Mbappe. I wouldn't qualify it as good unless he wins them a couple of CLs.

 

[Birdy]

Could just admit it was silly to agree and clarify and instead going into bone headed mode doubling down on a daft claim

Pep or Klopp like any other manager are no guarantee of unlocking a player's potential and playing best football of their career, for which there's many examples we've already listed. None at all
All depends on fit, circumstances and a number of other factors much more important than coming to play under these specific people

You should work on your logic a bit...

Saying that there is 'no better manager for a player to achieve his potential' means just that, nothing more nothing less
It doesn't mean that there are no other factors why a player can't achieve potential (see psychology of Goetze or Hleb, see not enough duration for Kroos)
It doesn't mean also that a B tier ceiling player can be turned into an A tier suddenly -> the original premise is precisely that there is potential there that the coach has to unlock

But it does mean that you won't find another coach having unlocked a potential which Pep or Jurgen failed to unlock (
Still waiting for that counter-example).

And that was my original point:

But he can certainly not attain the levels he would have, had he signed for a Klopp or a Pep team.
The declining md of RM and the absence of WC manager to build a team might hinder his ceiling

There is no doubling down, more like you didn't get the nuance in there from the start and wanted to turn it into a simplistic argument.

 

[FinBarcelonafan]

In other news, looks like Mbappe is all but confirmed

News now saying 30M net
Fucking wild money but hey...

That's bargain for Barto. Super bargain.

 

[FinBarcelonafan]

Griezmann cost was about 320m for 5 years at Barca
Neymar cost was about 600m for 5 years at PSG
Ronaldo cost was about 350m for 4 years at Juventus
Messi cost was about 550m for 4 years at Barca

Mbappe cost of 350-400m for 5 years looks quite good. You can say those clubs were irresponsible but City are usually noted for being smart with their business yet they probably spent 200m+ in total on Grealish and would have gone quite a bit higher for Kane who is older, not as good, and more injury prone than Mbappe.

The Haaland and Mbappe deals this summer are both cheap relative to the typical cost of signing proven top class players in today's market.

True true. Good signings.

 

[El Gato]

You should work on your logic a bit...

Saying that there is 'no better manager for a player to achieve his potential' means just that, nothing more nothing less
It doesn't mean that there are no other factors why a player can't achieve potential (see psychology of Goetze or Hleb, see not enough duration for Kroos)
It doesn't mean also that a B tier ceiling player can be turned into an A tier suddenly -> the original premise is precisely that there is potential there that the coach has to unlock

But it does mean that you won't find another coach having unlocked a potential which Pep or Jurgen failed to unlock (
Still waiting for that counter-example).

And that was my original point:

There is no doubling down, more like you didn't get the nuance in there from the start and wanted to turn it into a simplistic argument.

Nah had sodall nuance in that post with no mention of player level in it in any sentence, got a reading of it with which you agreed and now manufacturing a class of players as a factor in equation that wasn't there from starters. Usual stuff

 

[slicknick]

True true. Good signings.

Correction: GREAT signings!! Both of them