FinBarcelonafan
Well-known member
From the 2011 CL final. Vs
From Anfield.
Sure there are different players, but man the reliance on Alba is just ridiculous really.
More like a reason why we failed there. Anfield.
Ernesto Valverde
- Thread starter Messigician
- Start date
More like a reason why we failed there. Anfield.
xXKonan
Senior Member
My main hope is that with Arthur and FDJ being played together, that the Midfield will surely become the heart of the team again to go along with Messi.
Arthur and FDJ and the massive potential they have shouldn't be bogged down by tactics that have the full-backs such as Alba bypass the Midfield to get to the front three. For me, the Midfield should be the heart of this team along with Messi and everything else is secondary.
That's my wish and if Valverde wants to leave behind something that we fans can actually feel positive about him other than the trophies, it is moving the team in that direction with FDJ and Arthur so the next manager can have something to build on.
Arthur and FDJ and the massive potential they have shouldn't be bogged down by tactics that have the full-backs such as Alba bypass the Midfield to get to the front three. For me, the Midfield should be the heart of this team along with Messi and everything else is secondary.
That's my wish and if Valverde wants to leave behind something that we fans can actually feel positive about him other than the trophies, it is moving the team in that direction with FDJ and Arthur so the next manager can have something to build on.
serghei
Senior Member
They will improve our midfield play, already starting to, but imo they will not completely change the way we approach the attacking phase. The only man to change that is the manager.
If you look at both Arthur and Frenkie they are keeping a high position in build up. It means it is enough for the defending team to block Busi when the ball is at our CBs, and they will already determine us to go wide 90% of the time. This impacts the quality of the pases they receive.
JohnN
Senior Member
Clearly avoiding the point like the plague. You have to understand context when a person says "close to depression" about a football game. And you do, but you just avoid addressing the issue all together to pursue a narrative.
I am sorry, but you have gone into hiding for several months, and rightly so.
Don't start the same arguments about Valverde. It's pointles.
Poor_Sunyol
In Lucho we trust!
Valverde number 1!
BBZ8800
Senior Member
I have checked all CL's Knockout rounds results from 2003 till today, and I have found 3 biggest European bottlers in those 2 years.
They are:
1. Real Madrid Galacticos after 2002'
2. AC Milan after 2003'
3. Barcelona under Valverde or in the last few years
Real: CL winners in 98, 00 and 02'.
2003: 1/2: Juve 2:1, 1:3
2004: 1/4: Monaco 4:2, 1:3
2005: 1/8: Juve 1:0, 0:2
2007: 1/8: Bayern 3:2, 1:2
Milan: CL winners in 1989, 1990, 1994, 2003. Finalists in 1993 and 1995.
2004: 1/4: (Champions) Deportivo 4:1, 1:4
2005: Final: Liverpool from 3:0 to 3:3 and a defeat
2013: 1/8: Barcelona 2:0, 0:4
Barcelona: Winners in 2006, 2009, 2011 and 2015.
2016: 1/4: Atletico 2:1, 0:2
2018: 1/4: Roma 4:1, 0:3
2019: 1/2: Liverpool 3:0, 0:4
What all these 3 teams have in common?
= 1. they ruled the world for 10 or 15 years prior to that:
1) Real during Galacticos era was named as the best team of the century.
2) Ac Milan was the best team of 90s, winning 4 CLs from 1989-2003 and losing 2 finals (more CLs+finals than Barca in the last 15 years, for example)
3) Barca winning CLs in 2006, 2009, 2011 and 2015
= 2. all these teams were VERY OLD in terms of age. They had an insane amount of trophies and glory in 10-15 years prior to that and the core of their teams were physically old and mentally drained.
= 3. the other thing which they had in common: media, fans and everyone hailed them to heavens.
Teams started to be complacent and too cocky.
Also, these teams were filled with players who WON everything.
Motivation disappeared.
For example:
AC Milan after 2003:
Costacurta 38
Maldini 36
Redondo 35
Cafu 34
Rui Costa 32
Inzaghi 31
Shevchenko 28
Seedorf 28
Nesta 28
Ambrosini 27
The only younger players: Kaladze 26, Pirlo 25, Kaka 22
Real Madrid after 2003:
Hierro 35
Beckham 33
Figo 32
Roberto Carlos 30
Makelele 30
Salgado 28
Helguera 28
R9 27, Morientes 27, Guti 27, Raul 26.
When you look at Anfield's Barca with Messi 32, Suarez 32, Pique 32, Raki 31, Busi 31, Vidal 31, Alba 30... I see some red flags and some patterns with Galacticos and AC Milan.
I know that people want a scapegoat and simplify things and say: EV is guilty for everything.
In spite of EV, maybe this is a natural end of a 10-15 years long successful era?
Here are some videos of Real and Milan from their granny days when they were starting to do bottle jobs year after year.
** I know that RM's defeats like 1:0 to 0:2 are not the same as Anfield's defeat.
But the point is that those teams started to lose for several years in a row and they were always losing in the same way: wins at home and bottle jobs on away games where they were outrun by weaker, yet younger and hungrier teams.
Deportivo:Milan 4:0 from 2004'. Milan won 4:1 in the first match and they were reigning champions from 2003'.
Monaco:Real 3:1 (2nd leg) from 2004'. Real won 4:2 in the first leg.
Real had 4:2 and 1:0. They blew a 3 goal lead against weak-ish Monaco.
** Btw, we bought Ludovic Guily 2 Months later due to his displays in a CL in that season.
Or Milan:Liverpool from 2005, from 3:0 to 3:3.
** An inetersting thing is: on winning sides we always have younger teams who didn't win any trophies lately and who are running like crazy and dying on a field.
On a losing side, we usually have the same teams: teams filled with 30+ years old grannies who won everything and who are prone to matches like this one, where they look like zombies and can't do anything against younger and potent guys.
** Also, an interesting thing: Crujff has built a Dream team with younger players.
Rijkaard won titles against ageing Galacticos and Ac Milan.
Pep has built his team around young, hungrier players.
Klopp has built Liverpool around younger players who haven't won any major trophies.
Pep's City mostly has younger players who didn't win CL trophies.
Yet, Barto wants to build Galacticos and buy a 27 years old Neymar to be paired with our 32 years old player. An awesome idea
** I am not saying that EV is good.
But again, imo, our problems are way deeper than (only) EV.
Last edited:
BBZ8800
Senior Member
What about nature, aka age?
And psychology=the more you win, the less you are motivated for 99% of people?
Give me an example of one European team ever who managed to rule the world for more than 10 years.
Without crumbling down like Galacticos, Ac Milan, and lately Barca...
Imo, we started to die even around 2012.
Even Pep's team in the 4th season wasn't as motivated as in the first 3 years.
So:
1. 2012=a start of our fall
2. 2013=a fall continues with Tito
3. 2013=a fall continues even more with Tata
4. 2014/15 first part of a season, Lucho=a fall continues even more with Lucho.
Even back then I was saying the same things how our core is finished for Europe.
But we managed to find a short-term spark and a revolt for a 6 Month's success.
We won a treble in spring/summer of 2015.
5. we played good for only 3-4 Months more in early 2015/16 season and then we returned to a same old, downward spiral Barca since 2012:
2016 spring=we almost lost a 10 points advantage over Real and lost 0:2 to Atletico in a CL.
6. 2016/17=a downward spiral continues=we played like shit in Lucho's 3rd season. We lost La Liga. In a CL we had 0:4 against Psg and 0:3 against Juve.
A coincidence? Not for me.
7. 2017/18, EV=we play good results wise in La Liga due to a solid 442 and Messi.
In Europe, we continue the trend from 2012', with an exception in 2015'.
Roma disaster.
8. 2018/19, EV no2=we play worse in La Liga.
In Europe, the same as always. Another bottle job.
So, to some extent, if a starting point is 2010/11 season, we could say that in the next 8 seasons: 2012, 2013, 2014, 2015, 2016, 2017, 2018, 2019
= we played worse and worse in each new season.
Imo, this is my personal estimation of our seasons from 2011 to 2019, based on 4 factors:
1. Champions league title
2. La Liga title
3. beautiful Barca's DNA football
4. consistency over 12 Months of a season
So, in overall, you can see a longterm trend over 9 years how our displays and trophies are going down slowly.
NOT ONLY due to EV. This is slow and longterm process of dying/end of a long successful era.
Last edited:
serghei
Senior Member
Age matters too sure, but it is not the definitive factor.
As I told you in another thread, City under Pep had several 29+ years old players in the starting 11 last year. Fernandinho, Otamendi, David Silva and Aguero. Plus some others that were nearly 30. Similar to us really. Mix of veterans + hungry young players.
Points 1-6 are irrelevant when you reply to me. I have already said that imo we had 1 good manager since Pep, and that was Lucho, and Lucho wasn't too great either. So for me it is normal we weren't a force anymore in Europe post Pep, peak MSN freak season aside. We had nobody to start a new cycle. All we did was dwell on the leftovers from Pep's cycle, with little additions, until MSN carried us to a treble under Lucho.
Age surely isn't the biggest issue since Valverde left 22 years old Arthur on the bench to play 32 years old Vidal, next to 31 years old Busi and 31 years old Rakitic in both games vs Liverpool
Last edited:
DonAK
President of FC Barcelona
People here want to give Valverde credit for finally starting Arthur when he should have done that last season. 
That Anfield passmap a few posts above is just pathetic. Even Vidal had more forward passes than Rakitic who couldn't beat the press, played a boneheaded pass to Alba leading to Alba fucking up and Liverpool scoring, and was slow and couldn't do shit in general.
That Anfield passmap a few posts above is just pathetic. Even Vidal had more forward passes than Rakitic who couldn't beat the press, played a boneheaded pass to Alba leading to Alba fucking up and Liverpool scoring, and was slow and couldn't do shit in general.
BBZ8800
Senior Member
Age is one factor.
Motivation is another factor (titles won during a career).
A pecking order:
1. player aged 18-26 who hasn't won any major trophies (or 0-1-2 of them at most)
2. player aged 26-30 who hasn't won any trophies
3. player aged 18-26 who has won a lot of trophies
4&5. (tied) player aged 26-30 who has won a lot of trophies
player aged 30+ who hasn't won a lot of trophies
6. player aged 30+ who has won a lot of trophies
So:
1. Pep had more young players at City than we have at Barca
2. even his oldies haven't won CLs. Iirc, NONE player from City won any CLs.
David Silva didn't win any club trophies except with City.
The same as with Aguero.
The same with De Bruyne, Bernardo, Jesus, Sterling, Sane, Fernardinho.
Only Silva won NT titles with Spain, right?
Then, at Barca:
Messi: 4 Cls, 9 La Ligas
Suarez: 1 CL, 4 La Ligas
Busi: WC, 2 Euros, 3 Cls, 8 La Ligas
Pique: WC, Euro, 3 CLs, 8 La Ligas
Alba: NT titles, 1 CL, 5 La Ligas
Roberto: 1 Cl, several La Ligas
Mats: 1 CL, 4 La Ligas
Not to mention that we had Xavi and Iniesta as core players for years who had: World Cup, 2 Euros, 4 CLs, 10+ La Ligas.
Now, go back to Klopp's Liverpool=they have 0 CL winners in their team, right?
Pep's City=the same.
Rijkaard's team, the one which started our 10+ years long cycle, had only 1 CL winner=Deco.
Of course that we were hungry.
Then Pep got rid of Ronnie, Etoo, Deco, Edmilson, Marquez, Belletti, Oleguer, Motta.
And we had only Messi, Xavi, Iniesta, Puyol, Valdes as CLs winners.
Messi was 21, Iniesta 24, Valdes 26, Xavi 28, Puyol 30.
So, even when Pep came here, we didn't have too many CL winners and all of them won ONLY 1 CL (2006) and 2 La Ligas (2005, 2006) and Xavi and Puyol La Liga in 1999'.
So, those players weren't world cup winners, Euros winners, several winners of CLs and didn't win 5 or 10 La Ligas.
And then you have a current Barca:
Messi 32, Suarez 32, Pique 32, Raki 31, Busi 31, Vidal 31, Alba 30.
Core players are old.
Core players are slow.
Core players have won Cls, 2-10 La Ligas, some of them won World cup, Euros, Copa Americas or at least played NT finals.
They have big, fat contracts, unlike when Rijkaard or Pep came.
They are complacent, rich and hyped for years by media and fans, unlike when Rijkaard and Pep came.
Yes, Pep is a magician, but again, he is doing his magic (like all big coaches) with a team of younger, hungry players mixed with 2-3-4 experienced winners.
No coach ever has built a winning European team around 32 years old players who have zero motivation due to winning everything in club and NT football.
What is even worse: Messi and Suarez will be around 33 by the time of semis and finals of a CL next May.
Does that sound like a CL winning team? With or without Valverde...
Also, this is the oldest Barca's team on average in a modern history.
And a most successful Barca filled with players who were winning for 10 years.
Well, now we will pay the price of that, as always, at the end of a cycle.
Again, with or without Valverde.
MTL_Barca
Well-known member
Well we don't know what would happen if the current coach would push for bigger changes. I mean if you're the coach and you notice lack of motivation is one of the main problems then you either have to try your best on a psychological level to change that or if you don't believe that's possible replace players right?
Do you think Valverde is especially good in that regard? Do you think he really is behind the few changes that have occurred and pushing for more? I kinda doubt that.
Of course that is mainly a problem the board addressed too late, but yes man Ernie is/was also the perfect guy to let this happen. Match made in heaven.
But we should just stop with Pep/Klopp anyway, it's just not fair. It's like comparing Messi to idk Nolito or something
Do you think Valverde is especially good in that regard? Do you think he really is behind the few changes that have occurred and pushing for more? I kinda doubt that.
Of course that is mainly a problem the board addressed too late, but yes man Ernie is/was also the perfect guy to let this happen. Match made in heaven.
But we should just stop with Pep/Klopp anyway, it's just not fair. It's like comparing Messi to idk Nolito or something
Last edited:
George_Costanza
Active member
I have no idea where do you come up with all those excuses. What you said is true if the players playing a high school or college football level football where the only motivation would be winning that trophy so they can fuck cheerleaders after the final. For professional players, winning trophies is just one part of this "motivation" equation. Those guys would care about money, prestige, bonuses, new contacts, image rights, advertisement, interest from other clubs, individual trophies, publicity...etc. For example, a player might not earn some of the bonuses just for not playing X amount of games or minutes per season. What you are saying is if Mbappe wins the UCL and ballon d'or this season, his career is finished at the age of 21, since he won every trophy, league, cup, WC, UCL, and individual trophy. He won't be motivated to play better and perform anymore.
None sense!
DonAK
President of FC Barcelona
@BBZ8800
Just stop it dude. Only a couple of months ago you claimed Messi was a worse player than Rakitic in the CL last season and had a bigger share of the blame for us not winning that competition.
Why cannot you just see that Valverde has been average? Even if we forget about the style of play, the dumb decisions he's taken in back to back seasons is disgraceful.
Just stop it dude. Only a couple of months ago you claimed Messi was a worse player than Rakitic in the CL last season and had a bigger share of the blame for us not winning that competition.
Why cannot you just see that Valverde has been average? Even if we forget about the style of play, the dumb decisions he's taken in back to back seasons is disgraceful.
Last edited:
Home of Barca Fans
